Forum Topic

LTN and ambulances

This afternoon  a man was found unconscious in the alleyway beside 13 and 15 Leighton Road. An ambulance was called. However, the paramedics spent 25 minutes trying to gain access to Leighton Road. They had no key for the bollard and so no way to unlock it and quickly access the man in need of medical attention.Eventually they had to park at the end of the road and walk to the site of the collapsed man.They said if it had been a more serious incident then that delay would have been life threatening.While the gap between the raised beds is big enough for the fire brigade and ambulance vehicles. That is of no consequence if the ambulance staff do not have a key.I have emailed Julian Bell and the councillors for Walpole and Northfields wards.  I want to be assured that all ambulance crews have a key to ensure quick access.

Christina Fox ● 2207d60 Comments

This "Key Access" nonsense has always intrigued me.Keys need to be got at VERY short notice, plus keys get lost, forgotten, mixed up, unknowingly changed, etc, etc, and we get exactly what has happened, happening."Key Access" = Recipe For Disaster. Common sense really.

Rosco White ● 2206d

I had an idea that were some sort of standard keys - for instance isn't that what the refuse crews have for refuse bin chambers?

Philippa Bond ● 2206d

I have no idea, but that would make some sort of sense.However, if there is a Standard/Common key, in the fullness of time, everyone and their dog would have a copy wouldn't they?

Rosco White ● 2206d

I gather it is a standard key the fire brigade use. I suspect they are easy to pick up on Ebay.This is the reply from Julian Bell...Dear Christina,Thank you for sharing this. I have already contacted Council officers for them to get in touch with the London Ambulance Service to investigate this incident. All emergency services should have keys so I am not sure why they didn’t have one. We have been offering extra spare keys to the emergency services and will do so again when we contact London ambulance service. The safety of all our residents is paramount. Kind regards,Julian Cllr Julian BellLabour Leader of Ealing Council

Christina Fox ● 2206d

Someone said on here earlier that ambulances didn't qualify to get given the keys for some reason.If the keys are available so easily wouldn't it be less effort for all the people overturning planters to just unlock the bollards and leave them in the down position.

Andy Jones ● 2206d

These bollards are not light . In winter and in the UKs damp climate these very often freeze solid to the ground or jam from detritus from rainfall.Ambulance crews are not currently equipped with a full range of superhero traits.They are normal people whose superhuman trait is saving lives in a short time response using their dexterous skills and their trained knowledge.  Many crews are all female.They have enough hazards to deal with without getting wet, and dirty trying to remove bollards in a hurry.And Ambulances do not fit through the gaps in many places. and not through any in Junction road. In fact, even a paramedic motor bike cannot fit through the gaps so like everyone else is using the pavements.

Raymond Havelock ● 2206d

Unfortunately the headline 'paramedics unable to reach man collapsed on Leighton Road' is UNTRUE. The alleyway between 13 and 15 Leighton Road is 50 feet from the position of this road block. It would have taken 30 seconds for the paramedics to reach the scene on foot - NOT 25 minutes. Whether you are for or against these LTNs we all deserve objective reporting.

Mark Eccleston ● 2203d

Mark, despite being vehemently opposed to the LTN implementation in its current format, I can only agree. Moving the gurney from the ambulance to the victim and then back to the ambulance would have taken, at worst, two minutes each way. Scaremongering reporting does not help the cause of those trying to get the schemes amended.

N V Brooks ● 2203d

Does not really matter whether it was 20m away, But, nonetheless it really should have been reported correctly.Even 20m away compromises time and access and the means to leave the vicinity when it all jams up from obstruction from which there is no escape. Which has happened with a non emergency but local service vehicle in Murray Road.Next time it could be 200m away, torrential rain or a situation that requires returning to the vehicle. Not to mention the compromise in safety for the security of the vehicle whilst unattended,. A sad indictment of how things are these days.Any compromise over access is a serious risk and that has to be taken seriously.Despite the claims by the Officials, I am still trying to work out how a fire appliance measuring 8ft min width can negotiate gaps measuring under  8ft and even less over the diagonals which to clear will involve skilful and meticulous manoeuvring and near impossible in the dark?

Raymond Havelock ● 2202d

I've seen the Rapid Response emergency car mount the pavement to get around the one on Haslemere Avenue/Clitherow Avenue, the folowing big Ambulance had to turn around and use another route, probably Cardiff Road and Clitherow Ave.

Leslie Bailey ● 2202d

Whatever the actual distance was between the unconscious man and the ambulance the paramedics felt it was important to get the vehicle to him. None of us know the exact circumstances of this particular case but it is clearly wrong to question the judgment of medical professionals. Thinking their job is easy and that you could do it better is disrespectful and arrogant.

Gordon Southwell ● 2202d

Sorry Gordon, but if anybody is being disrespectful and arrogant here it is the paramedics who seem to believe they should have unfettered access to the streets where we live. They just assume they can drive their diesel powered ambulances spewing toxic gases anywhere they want on the grounds that they are 'saving lives'. Some contributors to this thread clearly know more about patient care than these so-called medical professionals. They don't need to drive into an LTN they can stay on the periphery and wheel a gurney to someone who is ill. In fact Ealing Hospital is less than a couple of miles away and it is exactly this short of journey that could easily be done by foot or bike that we need to eradicate. An adapted rickshaw would be far more appropriate, after all there isn't likely to be anything in those ambulances that is actually needed to treat people.

Christine Mulligan ● 2202d

Christine, you must stop doing this sort of thing. An ambulance has just had to be called to Rosco White's house to reports of a man's head exploding.

Gordon Southwell ● 2202d

Let's hope Christine you never need emergency treatment and suffer the consequences of delay.They are not expected to be weightlifters or athletes and life saving equipment is contained in the vehicles. Purpose built to save lives when seconds make the differenceIt could be you or I or a loved one at any time. And when you do experience what they can and do it drives it home.And most ambulances do not run on diesel

Raymond Havelock ● 2202d

Sigh

Christine Mulligan ● 2202d

It is becoming apparent that the problems the NHS are having are down to so many people coming in for irony by-passes. I've got both family and friends working for the service at the moment and they seem to concur that there is a significant proportion of the population who believe watching Holby City and Casualty for a few series gives you the equivalent of a medical degree. I think it is a safe assumption that anyone in this thread effectively implying that the paramedics were a bit lazy and didn't know how to do their job was making sure everybody knew they used to go out on Thursday nights to clap for the NHS for five minutes. Anyone who doesn't have a ridiculously inflated conception of their own competences should assume that if an NHS staff member is telling you there is a problem, there is a problem.

Gordon Southwell ● 2202d

Are you for real Christine or just a troll trying to get a reaction?
I have never read such a ludicrous post.
I hope, if you are real, that you never need the services of an ambulance.

N V Brooks ● 2202d

Are you for real Christine or just a troll trying to get a reaction?
I have never read such a ludicrous post.
I hope, if you are real, that you never need the services of an ambulance.

N V Brooks ● 2202d

Nigel, you are the one having a dig at the ambulance staff.The fact that you didn't get you were being parodied makes Christine's post even more hilarious.

Andy Jones ● 2202d

I should have added that LAS have a blacklist of addresses where they will not attend. Do please write to them Christine at : London Ambulance Service West Area Command Hanwell Ambulance Station Boston Rd, Hanwell, London W7 3SA
I am sure that they will be only too pleased to add your address,  not to waste their time attending any emergency that you may have and will happily watch you pedal a rickshaw to the nearest A&E!

N V Brooks ● 2202d

"I should have added that LAS have a blacklist of addresses where they will not attend"What utter bollocks.

Andy Jones ● 2202d

Oh well, if you feel that it passes for parody, that's alright then isn't it?

N V Brooks ● 2202d

First you impugn their professional integrity by suggesting they were scaremongering and now you allege they pick and choose whose aid they come to with anybody who they feel has slighted them likely to be declined service. What dangerous and offensive nonsense.

Gordon Southwell ● 2202d

LAS does have a blacklist and has maintained this since 2001.

Sources Daily Mail and, for balance as no-one trusts The Mail, The Guardian
London Ambulance Service has a register of 226 addresses while North East has a list of 236 Greater Manchester Ambulance service confirmed it had a similar register
Paramedics are advised to wait outside the address until police are in attendance
There are concerns children and other innocent patients living at the addresses who need urgent medical help could be put at risk. Capice?

N V Brooks ● 2202d

I impugn no-one I would just like accurate reporting.

N V Brooks ● 2202d

I don't understand what you mean. Are you claiming that the paradmedics did not say the things they are quoted as saying or that they are lying? As for your claim that the the ambulance service does not attend certain addresses and they would be inclined to add people to that list who upset them, the evidence you provide to support this actually shows it to be inaccurate. Obviously there would be a list of potential at risk address where paramedics would need to exercise caution and wait for a police presence. These lists would be to protect staff not to carry out petty vendettas. 

Gordon Southwell ● 2202d

You have misread my post and if it was not clear I apologise. I suggested that the supposed 'parody' poster could voluntarily add herself to the list of 'non-attendance' addresses should she wish to avoid 'nasty' ambulances driving on 'her' street. As to what was said by the paramedics, I have not commented on this. I merely stated that moving a gurney 50 feet would not take 25 minutes.

N V Brooks ● 2202d

Happy to accept it wasn't your intention to call into question the integrity of the service, however you should recognise that the ambiguity in your post would have led many to believe otherwise. Still perplexed why you believe it was unnecessary for the paramedics to bring the ambulance closer to the patient in the case in the article. Is there any reason you don't accept their view that this was required? Do you have any particular expertise in emergency medicine?

Gordon Southwell ● 2202d

I've been a bit shocked by how polarising this issue has become. The behaviour of some people at both extremes of the debate has been pretty poor and when we start treating fire fighters and paramedics as the enemy because they raise inconvenient questions we have to accept the plot has been lost.I was sorry to see Christina's good faith being called into question elsewhere on social media. She is after all supportive of the schemes and is just making the point it would be a good idea if paramedics had keys to unlike the bollards. Christine's post made me laugh out loud but I hope that someone can do an equally brilliant mickey take of some of the preposterous statements made by people opposed to LTNs. Unfortunately, as we have seen here, many of these individuals take themselves so seriously they won't realise the post is about them.

Tricia Arbuthnot ● 2201d

Thank you and my apologies for any ambiguity in my post. With regard to proximity, in an ideal world, the vehicle would be directly adjacent to the casualty. When however we had an older church member collapse the ambulance had to use our car park and bring  a wheeled stretcher to the patient. The car park is around 30 metres (100 feet) from the door of the church. It took the two paramedics moments (certainly not) 25 minutes  to wheel the patient from church to the ambulance where she had an almost instant revovery (but was taken to Ealing for a checkup).
This is why I posted that it would not take 25 minutes.

N V Brooks ● 2201d

Thank you and my apologies for any ambiguity in my post. With regard to proximity, in an ideal world, the vehicle would be directly adjacent to the casualty. When however we had an older church member collapse the ambulance had to use our car park and bring  a wheeled stretcher to the patient. The car park is around 30 metres (100 feet) from the door of the church. It took the two paramedics moments (certainly not) 25 minutes  to wheel the patient from church to the ambulance where she had an almost instant recovery (but was taken to Ealing for a checkup).
This is why I posted that it would not take 25 minutes.

N V Brooks ● 2201d

No idea why everything is posting twice sorry. I am getting a 'failed to create' error message and then a double post.

N V Brooks ● 2201d

Your meaning was ambiguous on a previous post so I want to give you every chance to be absolutely clear on this point.Is it correct to say that you have no medical expertise?Is it correct to say that you have no personal knowledge of the circumstances of the incident on Leighton Road other than that what has been reported?Is it correct to say you are basing your assessment of the paramedics actions on one previous incident in which  you saw other ambulance staff use a gurney and are assuming that this is something they could do in every circumstance?Given your assent to all of the above can you explain why you feel the paramedics said that it was necessary to bring their ambulance closer to the scene on Leighton Road? If, as you would appear to believe, there was no good medical reason, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that you are implying the paramedics were either incompetent or lazy.My own experiences with the staff of London Ambulance service, (and I have more of these than I would have wished) is that they consistently display a standard of professionalism and expertise that makes a mockery of their poor pay. I would implicitly trust their judgment in any matter relating to their work. Your experiences may be different, but even so, I would assert that gives you no grounds to question the decisions made by these particular paramedics in the Leighton Road incident.

Gordon Southwell ● 2201d

For the sake of both clarity and brevity, I repeat that I am not critical of the action of the LAS  or its personnel. I merely opined that it does not take 25 minutes to wheel a stretcher 50 feet and simply do not understand your obsession.
You may also wish to note that another ambulance was stuck at the same location yesterday evening.

N V Brooks ● 2201d

19:45 yesterday outside The Forrester pub. Crew had no bollard key and had to perform a three point turn.

N V Brooks ● 2201d

'I am not critical of the action of the LAS  or its personnel. I merely opined that it does not take 25 minutes to wheel a stretcher 50 feet and simply do not understand your obsession.'You have literally contradicted yourself within two sentences.Gordon isn't obsessed. He is trying, and failing, to get the point across to you that maybe the job of the paramedic isn't as easy as you think it is. It may not be your intention but other people are using the argument that these paramedics could have used a stretcher as a reason why them not having keys is a big deal.

Tricia Arbuthnot ● 2201d

I must be being obtuse I see no 'contradiction'. I am not critical of the LAS personnel. I opined that it simply does not take 25 minutes to wheel a stretcher 50 feet. Of course, emergency service vehicles should all have bollard keys. I have never made any comment about the obvious difficulty of being a paramedic. I have been 'blue lighted' twice this year to Ealing Hospital and a good friend's son was, until he resigned, a 'helimedic' on the LAA. I see no contradiction at all in simply stating a fact.
If you choose to imply or infer something different, despite my continued clarification, that that is your issue not mine.

N V Brooks ● 2201d

As it happens I'm not a fan of these diversion schemes, but as others have suggested, it's the '25 minute delay' in the original report that doesn't ring true. If the ambulance found itself on the 'wrong side' of the Leighton Road barrier, according to my Google map it would take six minutes to drive round to the other side.  So once the emergency vehicles have their navigation devices updated, this problem should be reduced.  The annoying thing about these schemes is that the local knowledge of drivers and residents about how to get from place to place has been rendered useless overnight as these barriers are plonked down with no real warning and no hint of what alternative route drivers should take. No wonder people are getting cross. And as discussed elsewhere, these schemes only tangentially meet the requirement to improve circulation space for pedestrians and cyclists, if at all. Restricting traffic in Northfield Avenue would be much better at doing that, so people can access the shops and cafes more easily while maintaining safe spacing. These schemes in quiet residential streets seem like standard traffic calming projects that have been dusted down by local councils and rushed out to get the government to pay for them.

Peter Evans ● 2201d

It's what the paramedics say the delay was. It you take into account the time it might have taken to assess the situation, load and unload equipment and that they may have been unfamiliar with the local roads, I would be inclined to believe them. Why do you think they would lie?

Tricia Arbuthnot ● 2201d

For pity's sake, I have not accused anyone of lying! It does not take 25 minutes to wheel a stretcher 50 feet. The assessment time would have been identical whichever side of the barrier the ambulance arrived. If the ambulance was despatched from WAC on Boston Road, they will have been familiar with local roads and the onboard navigation would have directed them if not. The issue is they did not have a key to drop the bollard, nothing more, nothing less.

N V Brooks ● 2201d

The first time a life is lost due to a delay in getting to the "victim" in an LTN...........The first house that is destroyed after an appliance arrives after the allotted 6 minute target by the LFB.......When the police first trace a specific heinous crime being committed and the perpetrator escaping due to clogged roads and impassable LTN's.... I hope, I just hope (and I don't mean this to sound as it does) but I really hope... it's linked directly to Julian Bell End or one of his cronies or supporters of these utterly, utterly ridiculous quango LTN schemesI used to enjoy living in this Borough.... once

Colin Goodman ● 2200d

I'm not sure at this stage whether you are being deliberately obtuse or have simply failed to grasp the point that other people and myself have been making. Nobody disputes it would take less than 25 minutes to carry a stretcher a short distance. What most people would assume was that, because the London Ambulance Service staff felt it necessary to bring their vehicle closer to the patient, that it wasn't practical to use a gurney either for clinical or operational reasons. You are insisting that it would be yet you are completely unqualified to hold such a view. The only grounds you appear to have for doing so is a completely boundless faith in your own judgement.

Gordon Southwell ● 2199d

Give it a rest chap, you have made your point, willful ignorance (see definition of obtuse) has led you to repeat yourself again and again to no effect. "Nobody disputes it would take less than 25 minutes to carry a stretcher a short distance"  — exactly the point that I made and the only point that I made.
It does not take 25 minutes to move 50 feet end of story.
No medical expertise needed just common sense.

N V Brooks ● 2199d

Nothing about all those pedestrians whose lives are lost or never the same again after tripping over paving stones broken by the careless lorry and van and car drivers who drive over the curbs to park.  In particular the lazy ones who drive in forwards.We need companies to invest in last mile delivery systems instead of sending so many company lorries out and we ourselves need to temper our lust for online and instant gratification ordering.

Philippa Bond ● 2198d

Working from home means more demand for work related supplies. Not everyone is an unproductive worker using just a phone and a laptop or desktop computer, as many are productive and use consumables to make their living.Thus deliveries which were not required when working in a fixed location are now needed everywhere.Lorries only deliver heavy goods and LTNs are seriously impeding deliveries to such districts adding huge costs to the recipient. It does make a lot of things unviable when in competition with other businesses elsewhere.Ultimately that will cost jobs and render too many local businesses unviable.But delivery companies are also affected by LTNs. They are taking much longer and with increased mileages and fuel use. Electric vehicles are only efficient on routes that are as practicable as possible too much running mileage make the deliveries more costly and reduces the capacity by range.So to keep to promised delivery times for customers up to 3 delivery vehicles have to be used where there was just one.  Otherwise business is lost.So now smaller vans are now servicing larger vans. But with self employed zero hours workers who can only make money by meeting targets and exceeding them.That means speeding, and more vehicles movements in LTNs than there were before.  Disguard residents movements and the figures are way up already.And stop start is the most polluting form of combustion engined use.And yes pavements and kerbs are getting damaged but notably by Council vehicles too large for the streets they are deployed in.

Raymond Havelock ● 2198d

You have totally missed the point thereby showing you lack both medical expertise and common sense.

Tricia Arbuthnot ● 2198d

I'm labouring this point because I think it is important. The good faith and professional judgement of these paramedics have been called into question of social media by the more avid supporters of LTNs because they dared raise an issue that wasn't entirely favourable to them. While most people would agree this is poor behaviour there is an internal logic to what these people are doing. You on the other hand don't have the same incentive to malign NHS staff because you oppose the LTNs. As far as I can see your reason for doing so is a belief in your own abilities so unqualified that you are convinced you could do their job better than they do.

Gordon Southwell ● 2197d

I have never professed medical expertise. I merely opined that it does not take 25 minutes to walk or push a trolley 50 feet. What part of this is too difficult for either you or Gordon to understand? I made co comment about the LAS personnel.
This may be fun for you but I am bored with your obtuse posts madam.

N V Brooks ● 2197d

See my reply above.

N V Brooks ● 2197d

The revelation that Ealing Council never actually consulted the ambulance service is shocking although where the blame actually lies is hard to tell at this stage. I am inclined to believe Julian Bell wouldn't have categorically said consultation had taken place if he knew it actually wasn't true.That aside, I owe the ambulance service an apology for having implied there head office would have waived through these plans for political reasons without listening to the concerns of the paramedics on the ground.Christina Fox deserves accolades for making sure this issue was brought to public attention and the people who called into question her good faith should be saying sorry to her.The editor of this site also deserves apologies from some people who questioned the veracity of her reporting. I understand a vexatious complaint was made to the regulator about the article which not surprisingly was dismissed but it takes courage to stand up to people so dedicated to only their opinions being aired. It invaluable to the community to have an authoritative news source. The council can dismiss posts on social media as just self-reinforcing noise but not properly produced news.The paramedics also deserve an apology. Their concerns were minimised and dismissed and people presumed that they would know how to do their jobs better than the professionals.Finally, the local people who have been sick or injured and had what will have been one of the most distressing times in their life made worse by a delay to an ambulance deserve the biggest apology of all.

Gordon Southwell ● 2180d

Astonishing and almost unbelievable oversight.

Philip Coe ● 2180d

The DM online is the biggest free online in the world. Before you all start sneering you might be interested to know they are running an article on our Dear Leader & the closure of roads today.  The posters replying come from all over the country with their own tales to tell. Be afraid, be very afraid. Agenda 21 at work.

Bettina Margaret Thwaite ● 2178d

Nothing wrong with The Daily Mail - The Guardian and similar are just as guilty in their slanted reporting.People seem to conveniently forget that The Daily Mail is the most popular newspaper in the UK (I believe?) so it would seem there is a very large number of people who agree with the DM's editorials?Such is the vitriol, ire & disdain directed at them from the Left/Wokes/PCers/etc though that DM readers would rather just keep quiet. But there's a LOT of them.

Rosco White ● 2178d

My apologies for diverging from the Topic, although we are all guilty of it from time to time.  😁

Rosco White ● 2178d

Agreed - what an awful oversight.  You'd have thought that all the emergency services would be able to liaise wouldn't you?  There's also the problem that systems have become stressed and fragmented which certainly doesn't help.

Philippa Bond ● 2175d

So it seems not only did they not consult with the Ambulance service, they didn't consult with the Fire and Rescue service either.To put it bluntly, Bell and the others promised the population that they HAD consulted the Fire and Ambulance services when they had in fact NOT done so, leaving us with barriers that the Fire service cannot negotiate in an emergency (and initially the Ambulance service too - no keys) has to be criminal?Our Councillors knew right from the start that the safety work and discussion had not been done, resulting in having the situation where the Fire appliances cannot negotiate many LTNs in emergencies.This cannot be acting within the legitimate legal framework needed.They openly lied in order to put these LTNs in place with no safety cases whatsoever.If there was a fire in one of those streets, who puts it out?This isn't just neglect, it is plainly deliberately not talking to the emergency services, so criminal in that lives are knowingly risked because of it. It now begs the question, Were the police consulted with on LTNs?

Leslie Bailey ● 2173d

VOTE THEM OUT

Colin Goodman ● 2173d

I see People are having shopping deliveries cancelled at the last moment in the evenings as Driver's are reaching their legal limits for driving, all due to the Roadblocks and their resulting congestion caused delays.I also notice the lack of LTNs in Hillingdon, Barnet, Havering, Bexley, and Bromley on the LTN map of London, maybe they listened to their population, those they represent.They must have stood up to Khan and said no.Wandsworth took them out after LTNs had similar effects to Ealing. All the above being Non-Labour Councils.Let's face it, we are being forced a form of severe socialism even communism upon us with Roadbocks and no consultations that is way beyond what Labour claims to be.

Leslie Bailey ● 2166d

There's a laughable letter circulating from a Council Executive called Lucy Taylor.If you're wondering just how politics and bureaucracy underline ineptitude and collusion then this is it.It reveals the fact that there will be no real open honest outcome to this and no respect or regard for local community, just division to rule and keep the cosy clique in place at any cost.Only those online or part of the digital world will be involved. Yet again excluding old and non online citizens of whom are a considerable proportion still.This is public servants adding their preferences into this and then using plannerspeak to justify yet exonerate themselves.or in my trade, Slippery.

Raymond Havelock ● 2166d

The Experimental Traffic Orders emanated from the Tory Minister of Transport Grant Shapps.  Traffic was feared and expected to increase to greater than before after lockdown ended. It was a way to put something into place quickly to allow space for and make safer and encourage more cycling and walking and consult on the trials during the six months of the trials to see the results.  Many families took up cycling and walking during lockdown.  The reason for many not cycling regularly is that the roads do not feel safe - particularly for new cyclists. Cycling is possible all year round - other countries just laugh at us and our 'the wrong leaves on the line' and inability to travel as soon as there is a sprinkling of snow.  Cycles don't only have to have two wheels. There isn't room for everybody to have a car and they cause a lot more pollution than walking or cycling.  Then there is the amount of CO2 traffic creates and the fact that we are in a climate emergency.  10 bicycles can park in the space of one car.  Too many cars and they drive over pavements damaging them and making them dangerous for pedestrians.Apparently there was some sort of glitch over the emailing of the LAS.  Have they said that there was a problem with the other emergency services?  I haven't seen that. Some roads are very straight and cars travel far too fast along them.  It was noticeable that despite the 20mph calming measures which the majority stick to there are some who greatly exceed this. You have to admit that nowadays consultations before something happens aren't exactly inclusive or democratic either.  They are often hijacked by a very vocal minority and many may not bother/feel knowledgeable enough/have time/or even know about them to take part - and many are not online and are consequently disenfranchised.

Philippa Bond ● 2164d