Forum Topic

Dangerous Cladding Debate

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/a6ac5191-f789-42ba-a63f-71e9c65ffbb6?in=15:38:38

Philippa Bond ● 2030d44 Comments

Unfortunately you cannot tell without watching which MPs are contributing but very informative on the vast scale of the problems.  You can also hear how some MPs have tried to find out who the offshore owners are of their leaseholder constituents' flats.  It is all very well just thinking that there is someone you should be claiming against but what happens when you can't find them or they refuse?There is a Fire Bill coming back to Parliament later this week - Wednesday I think.  Maybe we'll find out how much better checks will be expected to be and by whom and with what qualifications.  Shouldn't we all be entitled to feel safe in our homes - particularly newly built ones?

Philippa Bond ● 2029d

It's the scourge of Society, No Accountability.From the cladding scandal to financial chicanery to shoddy goods & services, the list goes on and is endless.Rarely is anyone held ultimately responsible, and even when they are, the "punishment" is often risible.Fundamental changes in Society are required, and soon, punishment needs to more than fit the crime, or we continue on the downward spiral.

Rosco White ● 2029d

There is more scheduled today in Parliament after Prime Minister's Questions.

Philippa Bond ● 2028d

After PMQs appaarently

Philippa Bond ● 2028d

https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2019-21/firesafety.htmlNow

Philippa Bond ● 2027d

Caveat emptor is a long established principle in English law. While I have sympathy for the predicament many find themselves in, the proper way of challenging this is through the courts. Establish liability and get those responsible to pay. It shouldn’t fall on the ordinary taxpayer to bail out people who were fooled into buying these properties.

Simon Hayes ● 2027d

C.E. went out of the window, long ago , I am afraid.

Simon Wycombe ● 2027d

Sally come out you are right. It went the same way as common sense and personal responsibility.There will always be situations of course where those in buildings with this cladding had no choice but to live there. However, the sweeping generalisation and expectation that the taxpayer will bale out everybody who lives in such a building is simply wrong.

N V Brooks ● 2027d

In the case of a clearly faulty car or washing machine, the law requires the dealer or manufacturer to fix or replace it. Yet with one of the biggest purchases we ever make, it seems that the organisations that sold it or built it can walk away from the problem. As so often, the law needs changing to target those responsible rather than using tax payers' money to let them off the hook.

Peter Evans ● 2027d

It's not always about "buyer beware " in the case of Grenfell as far as I am aware the panels were added a few years ago as an improvement The leaseholders would have been billed for a proportion of the cost under section 20 consultation They there for have a right to expect the correct standard of materials and workmanship.

David Burke ● 2027d

Caveat Emptor.  Pushing possibly tens of thousands of aspiring home-owners into personal bankruptcy is certainly in line with the neo-liberal ideas of the present Tory party.

Philippa Bond ● 2027d

Oh, ".... the neo-liberal ideas of the present Tory party", that's highly relevant to the discussion and topic.  😁Why haven't you brought the NHS into it, that's even more relevant.  🤣

Rosco White ● 2026d

Rosco  Why haven't YOU brought TORY AUSTERITY CUTS together with privatisation and cutting of red tape into it because that is far far more relevant!  As in so many other cases it is costing more to more people to pick up the pieces. Some developers have remediated the flats they built but others have refused to.How not to dump the remedial problems onto the Leaseholders who are facing insurance premiums which have in some cases increased fivefold, who can't sell or re-mortgage and who face bills of say £100,000?A solution is being discussed by the Leaseholders Knowledge Partnership and others.  There is a brilliant explanation of the problems in the introduction by Martina Lees, a journalist with the Times and Sunday Times:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fo_j4xEayA

Philippa Bond ● 2024d

It's The Tory Cuts!!!    🤣

Rosco White ● 2024d

Yes,64%.What's your point?

David Burke ● 2023d

Save the NHS!!!

Rosco White ● 2023d

Well I read that there may be 11 million people with flats with these problems including solicitors who won't be able to practise if they go bankrupt and doctors wanting to take up jobs in another part of the country etc when these problems are not their fault and not what you would expect with a new building.  Just dealing with the less tall of the buildings is not really a good enough solution especially if something better can be found.

Philippa Bond ● 2023d

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/02/taylor-wimpey-fire-safety-apartment-blocks-claddingSo Taylor Wimpey have come up with a fund for remediation  of buildings caught up in this affair.You do have to ask how so many developers and so many buildings are in this unhappy position with so many problems - not just cladding - and why some of them have come forward to remediate their buildings and others have refused.  The Govt is only giving some help with the cladding problem in the tallest of the buildings and not with any of the other fire safety problems they have.In Manchester leaseholders have got together to support each other and are known as the Manchester Cladiators:   https://twitter.com/McrCladiators?

Philippa Bond ● 2021d

"Fire Safety, wot's that?"Cllr BellEnd, The Most Illustrious Dear Leader of The Ealing Politburo.Vote Local Labour, a brain not required!  😂

Rosco White ● 2019d

The problem started in the Blair years, with relaxations in building control and inspection.  The focus then was on heat retention, not flammability. Inspection and supervision was skimped as well.  The developers usually set up SPVs for developments, which after the initial warranty/defects period may be wound up.  Usually worthless anyway.  Thus there is no clear legal route under existing law to require the original developer to remedy these defects.  The leases will place the entire cost on the leaseholders.  The government will do something about it, because there are 10s of thousands of voters caught, many of whom face bankruptcy and loss of livelihood as a result.  The question however is what, and how much the government can stump up, given the extraordinary demands on public finances.  It certainly won't be a complete bail-out.

Simon Cockshutt ● 2013d

Well the issue started back in the late 90's Tony Blair's government "the green deal and decent homes"...The problem was fixing insulation on the side of buildings to make them more energy efficient to say the least..Over the years successive governments have traded quality with quantity and allowed the building sector to take advantage.Ealing Council like others bend over backwards to the big developers and we all pay the price for poor management decisions. This is only the start in a few years all these high rise blocks will be a problem.. like the 70's and 80's slum estates with high crime.

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 2013d

Privatisation was the problem and the bonfire of regulations.https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/lords-vote-to-send-debate-over-leaseholder-cladding-costs-back-to-mps-for-second-time-70040This solution has been suggested:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fo_j4xEayA

Philippa Bond ● 2005d

Most products burn above 700c..its how you prevent the spread of fire in buildings. Compartmentation is the problem.  Fire stopping is vital in stopping fires in buildings. The easy of fire to spread is deadly, the flames won't kill you first; the toxic fumes will kill you well before the  flames get to you. Builders breach compartmentation barriers on a daily basis regular inspection and post inspection of work will keep residents safe in their homes.

Nicolas Ozegovic ● 2005d

I agree but it is not just builders - it is everybody who drills and knocks holes in things to put in all the changes and fancy things we dream of - all the fancy electrical equipment for instance wanted at our fingertips...  All the corners cut.  All the botched work.  All the safety requirements which we find unsightly and inconvenient and avoid or remove.Then there is the foam that the Fire Engineers don't like that is used willy-nilly to fill gaps....Yes, the smoke will get to you before the fire.

Philippa Bond ● 2005d

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/03/revealed-the-five-major-costs-the-cladding-crisis-is-piling-on-homeowners/

Philippa Bond ● 2005d

A Rebellion of Bishops.https://www.leaseholdknowledge.com/lords-rebellion-sees-government-fire-safety-bill-thrown-into-disarray/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56426927

Philippa Bond ● 2001d

Needless to say the Govt decided not to do anything more about those leaseholders who are still stuck with all the costs for their brand new flats found to be failing - despite ideas for funding them - in the Fire Safety Bill.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56491991There is also a Building Safety Bill going through Parliament.  Hopefully they will be able to clarify beyond argument and doubt what is and what isn't allowed in that.

Philippa Bond ● 1997d

http://www.ealingtoday.co.uk/default.asp?section=community&link=http://neighbournet.com/server/common/earupa022.htm

Philippa Bond ● 1982d

https://wrp.org.uk/news/3-quarters-of-medium-rises-use-combustible-material/

Philippa Bond ● 1981d

https://twitter.com/i/events/1390599817181614080Another tower block fire today. New Providence Wharf by Ballymore.

Philippa Bond ● 1955d

Ballymore, of course, are the 'partners' with LB Hounslow in the wholesale ruination of Brentford.

N V Brooks ● 1955d

Agreed,it must have been a nice place to live once. Bit like Ealing Broadway before the coming of the BellEnd and his cronies.

peter king ● 1954d

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/07/it-was-scary-resident-describes-escape-from-east-london-high-rise-blaze

Philippa Bond ● 1954d

It was rundown and in need of an uplift but all of the character has been totally excised. Thank God for The Magpie And Crown which is, so far, holding out while building works surround it.

N V Brooks ● 1954d

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/08/conservatives-hate-red-tape-unless-its-to-regulate-the-behaviour-of-their-enemiesI wonder if they are dealing with it better than they are here in this country?

Philippa Bond ● 1952d

I don't think this Cladding Scandal will ever be resolved satisfactorily, the unfortunate apartment sufferers will be shafted.This country lost its moral compass decades ago, arguably starting with Bliar, and then subsequently worsening.

Rosco White ● 1952d

Well here you go - here's Australia's response:https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/comment-australias-steps-on-cladding-crisis-shame-the-government/

Philippa Bond ● 1951d

Usual Aussie approach - direct, head on and practical.The way the UK often fannies around with everything they do, it's a wonder anything ever gets done.

Rosco White ● 1951d

This was interesting:https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000vz8qToo many developers dragging their feet considering that there are problems other than just the cladding.A lot of the developers have now been named in Parliament if not by the Minister.

Philippa Bond ● 1948d

When you buy a new car and it goes wrong, the dealer or the manufacturer puts it right, and when all those Hitachi train units started developing cracks, they were called in for Hitachi to fix. Why doesn't the same thing happen when you buy a new home - one of the biggest purchases anyone is likely to make? Such is the power of the big developers and building companies and the hold they have over this government that they can walk away from their mistakes and failures and nothing is done.

Peter Evans ● 1948d

The government can make sympathetic noises but it just isn't prepared to take the action against developers to rectify their short cuts. They've dragged their heels ever since Grenfell. I'd be curious how many donate to the Tory party. Follow the money.

Kevin Wilson ● 1948d

I think that there is also a problem in that there was a bit of a bonfire of regulations to make building easier.

Philippa Bond ● 1947d

Several millions donated so that is why no action was taken. A complete and utter disgrace. When David Cameron spoke about a bonfire of regulations several Tower Blocks ended up with fires and so sadly so many died at Grenfell. It shows that really many people dont care

Peter Chadburn ● 1944d

And just look at the waking watch costs!In the recent Ballymore building fire apparently it wasn't even the waking watch that alerted them it was other residents banging on their doors and residents' social media group.

Philippa Bond ● 1944d