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Robert   Thankyou so much for taking time to write that all out! It is fascinating info and has given me something to think about over the festive season,I'm sure Brentford and Ealing were crossed by many tracks in pre Roman times that are in themselves interesting.  Cassivellaunus did have very many charriots,with wide wheels suited for mud tracks (from Caesars journals) and would have needed tracks criss crossing Middlesex.  I vaguely remember from my youth going to a large area of rough ground to the North of Drayton Bridge Road, to catch (and release!) slow worms,this certainly had a definate track heading Northwards. I also seem to remember that it had several earth mounds and ditches traversing it.I cant recall seeing it in recent times ,so I guess it's fallen to a housing development nowadays.  A couple of days ago I received a copy of Diana Willments book on the life of Sir Montagu Sharpe the Forgotten Man of Middlesesx ,an excellent little book,and I have to say that she's taken a seemingly unbiased look at his life and works. Of special interest to me,was that in the 1920s a local Ealing company (Clements Knowling later I think Parr Head Clements Knowling of Derwent Yard)were hired to remove the remaining stakes at Brentford. It seems they achieved this by tying a boat/barge to each post at low tide and then just waiting for high tide! It gives one a good idea of just how much effort whovever put them in took on the installation.   Also of interest is that Montagu had one turned into a walking stick,the stakes were decribed a being as thick as a mans thigh,there must have been an awfull lot of shavings!   Yes I've been scouring the www. for a copy of Jims map as well...it's excellent.Ok, so thankyou once again for the information,I'd like to wish you and your family a Great Christmas and New Year,and also the same to all other contributors to this forum,it's an interesting place...Cheers!

Tony Wood ● 6857d

Hi  Robert etc.    I've spent a while having a look for the "Old Northern Trackway" ,that seems a less ambiguous description than the "Agrarian Way" that Sir Montagu mentioned.  It seems that Agrarian Way could be applied to several ancient tracks that run through Middlesex, East-West,North-South and some in betweens,so Northern Trackway may reduce confusion.  I think I "may" (a big may) have  located the next section Northwards after your seemingly very accurate  "Jacobs Ladder" idea.   If you have Virtual Earth on your PC,then you could take a look at Drayton Bridge Road,from the Eastern end and just before the railway bridge, there is a zebra crossing with a very obvious track going Northwards for about 1.5km, meeting a bridge over the Brent by the old Maternity Hospital . This is exactly the area I used to catch slow worms hundreds of years ago,the area to the West of the track used to be open fields,with several hedges and ditches at right angles to the track. (Just in case you don't have V.E. I've uploaded the maps to a Flickr link below,it doesn't show on Ordnance Survey 1:50k maps).  The track seems to run straight on a NNW heading and it looks like Harrow was it's first major destination,I don't know if it went beyond to St.Albans as Sir Montagu suggests,personally I probably don't think it did,as I'm fairly sure that St.Albans didn't exist at the time this track was created,though it may have been extended at a  later date.Regards Tonyhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/archie-ology/sets/72157603565452106/

Tony Wood ● 6852d

Hi David HNY to you.  Well I'm not really looking back that far,it's just that you can't look a a period in time without looking either side of it,though I have to say it "does my head" in trying to keep track of all the various bits of info in place,too many balls an too much air!  I think Harrow certainly goes back a long way,definately older than Anglo Saxon,the early Britons did tend to go to hills to worship...It may be that they went to hills because they were easily visible on the horizon,so people from all compass points could see the hill on the horizon,so it would be a good place to meet up and get closer to their Gods,it still happens today,Box Hill and bikers for instance,though I'm not sure that has too much to do with getting closer to God!  As far as early tracks go,I'm beginning to think that if a track did exist between say Brentford and St.Albans then it may be that folk from Brentford trod down the lower section to Harrow, and the folk from what became St.Albans trod down their section,I can't see why a group from (at that time)a fairly large town would want to go to a place that really didn't have much to offer them.  The book Where Troy Once Stood sounds interesting,I vaguely seem to think I've heard of it,absolutely no chance of the library up here (Argyll) having it,it's all Catherine Cookson and the like,but next time I'm in Ealing I'll put it on the list of things I want to do. I will however have a look at the Troy in England website later today,thanks for the heads up!  I like mentalists....I have to!Cheers Tony

Tony Wood ● 6849d

    Yes I'm sure the ancient tracks usage diminished as the Roman roads were laid,in much the same way as the old A roads today carry mostly local traffic since the introduction of Motorways.    I haven't decided wether I think that the tracks were used just to get to the top of the nearest hill, or more likely used as droving/trading tracks.  I am fairly sure that the strange field system that I remember at Drayton Bridge Road,may have been overnight grazing for herds/flocks on the way to market,I've not seen anything similar anywhere,perhaps it was used like Cacklegoose Green,but for cloven hooofed animals?? (Does anyone else remember them?)  As far as using horses for farm work and transport..we musn't underestimate the use of oxen,it's documented somewhere on the www. but I can't find it now,that huge use of oxen was used on farms in pre Roman times,they found the ox had far more torque than horses,but that you wouldn't want to go into battle on an ox drawn chariot! In later times (probably post Roman) they used horse and oxen as a mixed team,to get the best of the horses speed and the ox's power.I can't find a picture of it now but you are right the chariot chassis did form the basis of the "Long Carts" used to transport goods,about 16 feet long but probably only about 5 feet wide...here's a couple of chariots.  The Barnes Pikle route? Well it may have pre existed the Romans,but I,m not sure why the British would have wanted a route to St.Albans/Brockley Hill,what is needed really is an excavation to reveal the top surface,that's not going to happen at the Golf Club, but Pitshanger Park may be a possibility! In any case I shall have a prod about with the Ground Resistance Meter,really just to see if its route can be determined,it'll have to be a lot drier than it is up here today!Regards

Tony Wood ● 6842d

Tony, I`m glad you mentioned the oxen because from what I`ve gleaned the horses were mainly small or ponies and suited to light duties. It made we wonder if there was a small cart or cruder chariot to back up the leaders fine chariots as pictured. If not the high numbers available, believed to be several thousand, would indicate continual friction between tribes and constant patrolling of boundaries and men continually under arms.I`ve read that there were identified Roman potters from Gaul with works at Brockley Hill and could imagine supplies coming through from Brentford although they were probably set up after Watling Street. (presume the clay would be nearer to them)I wondered if Diana Willments mentions anything about Montagu Sharpes schooling and whether he was schooled or tutored locally?His fathers estate, Hanwell Park, initially stretched from Cuckoo Lane (now Greenford Rd) east to the Ealing boundary and from the Park Hotel up to the Brent, a good part of Cuckoo Hill, and may have included the golf course too!The crossing points are difficult because as Kate McEwan in "Ealing Walkabout" writes "the somewhat unpredictable waters of the Brent cut off all access from the south during times of flood" to Perivale and "the course of the Brent has changed during the last two hundred years; it used to flow more than five hundred feet south at this point (Church of St.Mary the Virgin)- which explains why the church was not continually flooded in winter". I did wonder about proximity on my recent visit!Constance and those further afield would hopefully enjoy a browse of www.st-marys-perivale.org.uk

Robert Darke ● 6841d

Hi Robert  I think you're right about the size of horses available at that time,a quick "Wiki" shows that bigger horses like chargers weren't around until the 13th century,and Suffolk Punches the 15th century. Wiki also says that the big horses were worth 4 times as much as the small ones,so I doubt Cassivelaunus had any.  The chariots were I think "standard issue" to the troops (the Jeep of the day),but the driver was a higher rank,and the passenger was an oik with a sword or a crude lance,sometimes clambering along the shaft alongside the horses head to get closer to the enemy...nothing changes!  Sir Montagu Sharpes schooling does get a mention in Diana Willments book,he attended a Public School..Felsted School in the Chelmsford-Colchester-Cambridge triangle. After school he had a spell in the Civil Service at Somerset House,then after(?)his marriage to Mary Parsons (Brent Lodge) he went to Grays Inn and studied law.    I hadn't really thought about where the Romans got their clay from,I don't really know anything about the stuff,except that there are several types for several uses.Pottery,roof tiles and bricks etc. I should think they had a local supply for building materials (Wickes!),but for pottery I don't know,it'd be nice if they got it from Clayponds,but I doubt it. I'm sure an academic somewhere has analyzed it, located it's source and written it all upon the www.,it's just finding it that's the tough part.  Yes I've seen the Brent in full flood,the "Great Thaw" of 1964 :0),it was a nightmare,but I seem to recall that they built some sort of flood relief system to cope with it. I imagine in pre Roman times,if it was flooded they'd just go home and wait for it to go away,(that's what I've been doing up here today...gales,floods,branches etc.)  I've been reading a book today that says "The Thames wasn't tidal beyond Chelsea at the time of the Romans",can that be true,any thoughts welcome,I'm struggling with that?

Tony Wood ● 6840d