Forum Topic

Conservatives Achilles Heel

More parking cameras going up now, this is going to do for the Conservatives what the tram did for Labour.

Peter Wright ● 6789d33 Comments

Persons who park illegally wouldn't vote Conservative anyway!

Alan Brainsby ● 6789d

Anyone know the situation for drop-offs & pick-ups at the underground stations such as Boston Manor, Northfields, South Ealing?Are there properly defined areas or is this heading for another Ealing Broadway debacle where parking fines are received for not parking?

Robert Darke ● 6786d

I agree. This policy is horribly disappointing and the Tories are grossly tarnishing what had been a good start to running the council.I was thrilled when the Tories took over the Council, as I thought that we would finally have a council that applied commmon sense and did not punish the reasonable man and woman. It is appalling that the camera outside the station was introduced in the first place. Access to Ealing Broadway has always been a nightmare and it is grossly disproportionate that one should have to pay out an enormous fine for stopping outside the station to drop off an old relative - regardless of whether the road is quiet.The explanation from the council is clearly a cover-up for a desire to increase funding. It was claimed that stopping outside the station inconvenienced buses, yet it does not take a rocket scientist to realise that stopping at the start of the diagnol road, as the council now advises, also delays buses. The £50,000 raised is a great way to cut council tax money therefore the Council can boast a low tax increase.Isn't it ironic that they advise us to use the double yellow on the diagnol road, but they are now fining people for using other double yellows elsewhere in the borough???It is deeply hypocritical of the Tories to persist with such a deeply unpopular policy when they campaigned heavily against Mr. Livingstone for being out of touch with public opinion. The Tories deserve all the criticism and loss of support that they get for this. Shame it is so close to the Mayor election.

Peter Williams ● 6786d

Edit: Lets make that £500,000 raised.

Peter Williams ● 6786d

.....that one should have to pay out an enormous fine for stopping outside the station to drop off an old relative...Not wishing to appear cynical but assuming that aged person has been delivered to the station for the purpose of onward conveyance by train then that person has potentially 100 m of platform to traverse. Add to that the entrance hall and stairs, unless of course his/her zimmer frame is used a toboggan. The overhead of parking a few metres away is irrelevant. There is an adequate pedestrian crossing outside the station.I rather think most of the objections related to stopping is more for the convenience of the motorist than anything else.

Alan Brainsby ● 6785d

Was it not always illegal to park there? I suppose everybody was happy to park illegally as long as they didn't get a ticket. I paid mine because it was a "fair cop guv".

Tony Maxey ● 6785d

Peter, where are the parking cameras that you are referring to located? IIRC the camera in front of Ealing Broadway station is nothing to do with the Council.

James de Vivenot ● 6785d

To make train travel more attractive you need to make the stations more accessible.  This means being able to reach the station easily WITH drop-off points for passengers with luggage, children in buggies, the less mobile.  You need to be able to get down to the platforms easily.  Once there so long as there are not too many steps most people manage. It is often the length and difficulty of the trek to get to the train which puts people off. 

Philippa Bond ● 6785d

James, here is some information about the camera I'm talking about. It was organised by the council.http://icealing.icnetwork.co.uk/ealinggazette/headlines/tm_headline=80-for-3-seconds-parking%26method=full%26objectid=19462623%26siteid=67372-name_page.html

Peter Williams ● 6785d

Alan, having to walk even further does not cater all well for the disabled or those with difficulties in walking.My principal objection to the camera is the fact that it is designed to catch out as many as possible. The fact it caught out so many people off guard serves to demonstrate that. Unless you frequently read the local media, it is very confusing as to where you can possibly stop to drop people off. How is the reasonable person expected to know that you can stop across the road to the station but not right outside? Especially when the council are now handing out similar fines to enforce double yellow lines elsewhere in the borough. No one wants to get caught out with the fines, yet people are unaware of the consequences, hence the large number of fines handed out.  This method of rigidly applying the letter of the law when there was not really a problem in the first place is clear proof that the council were looking purely for a way of raising revenue.

Peter Williams ● 6785d

Peter, now I am confused - was the camera outside Ealing Broadway station installed by the council or by a private parking company (Park Direct)?On 24th February in another thread on this forum ("Parking Tickets - Ealing Broadway Tube"), Cllr Phil Taylor stated:"Olivera,Don’t pay. This is nothing to do with the council. It is a civil matter and effectively a try on. If they want to get money out of you they need to go to court and prove that they have a contract with you. Under the 1999 unfair contract terms regulations they haven’t a hope. It is OK to drop off on the double yellows inside the private station forecourt.  Also the Highway Code is clear that you can drop of on both single and double yellow lines.  There are double yellows opposite the station where you can drop off.  Your passenger can then cross on the pedestrian crossing."  Also drivers are being advised by Ealing Trading Standards not to pay parking tickets issued by Park Direct for parking outside Ealing Broadway station:Ealing Times article 1st February 2008

James de Vivenot ● 6785d

Peter: The additional walking distance at EB is negligible when the station, platforms, train, and the other end is taken into account.The law is quite clear - don't stop on zig-zags, don't stop on double yellow lines and don't stop at bus stops. Just because those rules aren't enforced with such vigour elsewhere doesn't make it legal.We'd be complaining like hell if a parking vigilance camera  was placed at a bus stop where nobody ever stopped illegally, let alone the cost of the operator monitoring the  camera. Having said that there are plenty of automatic systems available to "flag" the presence of a vehicle which isn't a bus (I hope the council is investigating these systems). Also unless is fortunate enough to travel on Route 226 or 297 most bus passengers have a longer walk to EB station than individuals dropped off at the end of the diagonal.

Alan Brainsby ● 6785d

I don't think Boris Johnson is too pleased with the way CCTV is used in Ealing either - Ealing Gazette.How many crimes have been solved or prevented by CCTV around the station?        "Mr Johnson, who is currently just one point behind Ken Livingstone in the polls, also blasted plans to scrap some of the borough's local police stations, urging the Metropolitan Police to replace them instead with 24-hour stations, and promised live CCTV for the 207 bus, recently listed as one of the most crime-ridden routes in the capital.The Henley MP also told the Gazette about his discomfort with the huge numbers of CCTV cameras now trained on Ealing citizens as they go about their daily business.He said: "Last year alone in Ealing there were over 1,700 vehicle thefts and over 10,000 violent crimes - given the number of CCTV cameras in Ealing, surely most of these crimes would have been caught on camera and yet only around a fifth of these crimes were solved."We are clearly not getting value for money from the proliferation of CCTV cameras."We should reassess what they are for and how they are used. If we are to have so many cameras watching us, then we should use them to cut crime and to solve more crimes, making Londoners feel safer in their city.""  

Peter Wright ● 6785d

http://www.ealing.gov.uk/press_releases/2008/february/pr1180.htmlI am pretty sure there are red road markings where the buses stop which mean no stopping at any time.There is a Netweork Rail mobility service that you can book.  You book at least 24 hrs in advance.  They are supposed (I investigated but haven't used it yet) to meet the train and use the seat booking to locate you.  Then you will get a lift across the station.http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/disabled_passengers/

Philippa Bond ● 6785d

Around EB station there are no red road markings. Bus stop areas are denoted by wide yellow line and the bus stop sign posts have the TfL warning about not stopping.It would help if the whole roadway were remarked, some of the markings are a little tired. It would be further improved if before that momentous event ONE person redesigned the area's road marking. The present markings look as if they were contracted in 15m sections to different people who may have been PE (Pharmaceutically Enhanced) and could only manage shorter sections anyway.Of course 24 hr bus lanes could be introduced... Well, it was done on the north side of Haven Green, and once the correct sign was put up (with the bus lane in the middle rather than to the left) it now looks like it was done by one person (non-PE).

Alan Brainsby ● 6785d

James, I think there are 2 different cameras.Tickets for parking in that access road are handed out by the private parking company.Tickets for stopping in the bus stop or on the zig zag on the main road are handed out by the council.

Peter Williams ● 6785d

'The law is quite clear - don't stop on zig-zags, don't stop on double yellow lines and don't stop at bus stops. Just because those rules aren't enforced with such vigour elsewhere doesn't make it legal.'But the council are telling us to stop on double yellow lines on the other side of the road and on the diagnol road. If that is also illegal, it is confusing that one illegal activity is being punished severely and the other one is encouraged.

Peter Williams ● 6785d

There is a camera post at the start of the diagonal. At the top is the camera used to detect illegally stopped vehicles along the east side of Haven Green. It can track a vehicle from the roundabout at the north end through to Uxbridge Road. The operators of this camera are most proficient IMO. It's fascinating to watch the camera track a vehicle and a pleasant way to pass the time while waiting for a bus.Below is another camera which seems to cover the lights-controlled crossing from EB station to the diagonal. I not sure whether it's got a motorized mount.

Alan Brainsby ● 6785d

So are we going to design it for them then?Let's send all the cars underground and leave groundlevel for pedestrians.  We can dream can't we?You can stop to load or unload on double yellow lines or on some of them.  We come back to the definition of parking.  Whether it is leaving your car or stopping your car.

Philippa Bond ● 6785d

Double yellow lines without signage means no "anything" at any time (the law was changed a few years ago to remove the need for signage).Broad yellow is bus stopping only.I would agree about pedestrianization - of course that's gone with the tram...

Alan Brainsby ● 6785d

"Double yellow lines without signage means no "anything" at any time"No, it doesn't mean no "anything"!  It means no parking at any time ('no waiting' is the official term), but unless there are also signed loading restrictions, you can stop to load or unload, or to set down or pick up passengers.I was at Ealing Broadway station this morning, and noticed the convenient 'private' road in front of the station entrance, that seemed ideal for dropping people off, provided you don't park in the marked parking bays there.  I wondered what all the fuss was about ...

Richard Jennings ● 6785d

It was coned off for some time so could not be used causing people to stop just before it in the buses area.  It works well when there is some pressure to just drop your passenger/s and move on - just as a taxi would do.

Philippa Bond ● 6785d

Substitute "waiting" for "anything" and we've got what I said.About the only thing one could do is empty an ashtray at at that point. That's illegal under under another set of laws anyway.The yellow lines on the forecourt of EB station are on private property and not subject to council enforcement. Their meaning could be quite different from that of the Highway Code but commonsense probably prevails.

Alan Brainsby ● 6785d

Just to get it straight and complete re yellow stopping restrictions:-Yellow lines, whether single or double, unaccompanied by loading restrictions (which see below), mean no waiting (ie no parking) during the restrictions operational hours at that location, except for:--  up to 2 minutes for setting down or picking up passengers-  up to 20 minutes for loading or unloading of heavy, bulky or valuable goods-  up to 3 hours for Blue Badge Holders.Double yellow lines apply at all times (24/7 as folk say nowadays) including bank holidays  -  hence timeplates have now been sdispensed with as unnecessary, as AlanB says.Single yellow lines have to be accompanied by yellow timeplates at reasonable spacings showing the times, days and (if apropriate) periods of the year when the resrtictions operate.Loading restrictions,indicated by a series of closely spaced transverse short yellow markings (sometimes known as 'blips' in the trade) and white timeplates (as the lower half of a combined waiting and loading restriction timeplate).'Bus stop clearways', indicated by broad yellow line and a green restriction plate mean no stopping by any vehicle other than an authorised bus at any time, not even for an instant  -  no excuses accepted, not even death of the driver. There are still many bus stops and some bus stands which don't have Bus Stop Clearway restrictions, but nesarly all those stil habve advisory 'Bus Stop Cage' markings and it's bad practice to park on them even if there's no yellow line waiting restrictions there.One big problem for drivers is that the waiting and loading restriction timeplates are not only small and thereby difficult to read without stopping and getting out of the vehicle to do so, but are sited parallel to the kerb, making them even more difficult to read from the driver's seat. By contrast the equivalent 'No Stopping' and parking place plates on London Red Routes are much bigger and are sited facing the approaching traffic direction (or are meant to be  -  they sometimes get knocked and rotated out of position) thereby being readily readable by any approaching driver contemplating stopping  -  except blind drivers  -  they haven't done them in braille yet.Here endeth the lesson.

Chris Veasey ● 6785d

The preacher for next Sunday will be nailed to the vestry door...Thanks for the exposition Chris.Quick question: The left side of Springbridge Road has double yellow lines. It is signed no waiting 7 am to 7 pm, not a seasonal restriction.What does that signage mean now? Should it be a single yellow?

Alan Brainsby ● 6785d

If it really is a 7-7 restriction it should be single yellow line. If 24/7 the plates should be removed leaving unaccompanied double yellow lines. The current inconsistency you report may mean the restrictions are unenforceable as improperly signed.-  any relevant Councillors or officers reading please note and get checked and corrected pronto!!!

Chris Veasey ● 6785d

I see I failed to complete the info re loading restrictions  -  should read:-Loading restrictions, indicated by a series of closely spaced transverse short yellow markings (sometimes known as 'blips' in the trade) and white timeplates (as the lower half of a combined waiting and loading restriction timeplate), mean no stopping at all for any purpose (including passenger setdown/pickup, goods loading/unloading and Blue Badge parking) during the indicated restriction period(s).

Chris Veasey ● 6784d

Regarding inconsistencies I was advised by a parking warden that the single yellow lines around "Tortoise Green", that's the little grass triangle at the bottom of Castlebar Road, are unenforceable because of inadequate signage. And all that money was spent on tarting up the junction at the south east corner of Tortoise Green to give only a slight improvement in traffic calming.

Alan Brainsby ● 6784d

Oh, and of course I forgot to mention the ultra-privileged class of motorist: school parents (or other carborne accompanying adults)  -  these apparently have a divine right to park where they please for as long as they please (theoretically for up to 10 minutes, but ho ho ho), regardless of the obstruction or other inconvenience they cause to other road users.

Chris Veasey ● 6784d

Alan wrote: >The law is quite clear - don't stop on zig-zags, don't stop on double yellow lines

David Fox ● 6784d

I have been informed that its perfectly within the law to drop-off on both single and double yellow lines at any time.    The zig-zags on crossings and bus stops (presumably also with zig-zags or blocked off)? look like the penalty areas.If you are in a queue at a crossing and your passenger jumps in or out is it fair that you receive a fine when it made commonsense?

Robert Darke ● 6779d

No.

Jane Salisbury ● 6779d

Bus stops don't have zigzags  -  a majority in London now have 'Bus Stop Clearway' restrictions indicated by extra-wide single yellow line and a yellow-and-green signplate (or on Red Routes red line  -  all bus stops and stands on Red Routes are meant to be Clearway-restricted)  -  Bus Stop Clearways you must never stop on.A significant minority of bus stops and stands are without Clearway restrictions, and although you shouldn't park on  these you can do so with impunity provided there aren't any other waiting/loading restrictions in operation there at the time which you're infringing, AND providing you're not clearly causing obstruction to other road users (the Police -  not Local Authority wardens  -  still retain the power to issue penalty tickets or tow away in cases of 'Unnecessary Obstruction' even where no formal restrictions are in force)  -  no ordinary citizen has an absolute right to park a vehicle anywhere on the highway  -  which in law is for the passage of traffic not vehicle storage  -  other than in a designated parking place which the driver is eligible to use in accordance with the restrictions governing that parking place, ie if you've paid the fee if applicable, or if it's a freebie and you haven't overstayed your time if it's time-restricted.Re passenger getting in or out while you're stationary at a crossing, traffic signal stopline or anywhere else on the highway where there happen to be stopping restrictions in force, no of course you're not committing an offence (without your passenger is a robber, armed or otherwise, and you're their getaway 'wheels') and can't be done for one.

Chris Veasey ● 6779d