Forum Topic

A couple of butcher-related questions

One of the meals I cook that is, apparently, "nearly as good" as his Mum used to cook is Oxtail. But why is it called Oxtail?  Why isn't it Cow Tail or Bull Tail? Is an Ox like a Capon perhaps and been "altered"  in some way? I have even seen butchers labeling it "Beef Oxtail" but it couldn't be anything else ! Q2 is about Halal butchers. I was going to ask this in the shop earlier today but got all "British" and chickened out if you'll forgive the pun. Now, I know Moslems don't eat pork. But our local  Halal butchers don't sell beef either - I thought it was Hindus that didn't eat beef?

Viv Ellis ● 6759d45 Comments

I don't know about the beef but do buy Halal lamb and Lebanese (Lamb) sausages from Damas Gate on the Uxbridge Road, Shepherds Bush - both good and cheap

Iain Muir ● 6759d

Interesting questions - I too would like to know the answers.

Gerry Tan ● 6759d

Re :- "  Now, I know Moslems don't eat pork. But our local  Halal butchers don't sell beef either - I thought it was Hindus that didn't eat beef? "        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The whole thing is a farce, meat eating as dictated by religion, ie GOD. How can GOD tell one peoples not to eat for example , swine flesh , another peoples not to eat cow meat, and to others, say nothing at all. The muslim dietary laws are watered down jewish ones and many attempts have been made  in this country to have the jewish method of slaughter banned on the grounds of cruelty, the method as dictated by Yahweh, ie GOD, but the jewish lobby have so far successfully  fought off any attempts to abandon it. Now we are swamped with halal meat shops, the method of slaughter being the same as the jewish, ie the animal is killed while fully conscious by the throat being cut and bleeds to death. Some countries have successfully banned both shekita an halal methods and it's a pity we haven't. Jews and muslims claim the pig is an unclean animal and the meat dangerous to health, but I contend this is a fallacy, the number of chinese proving the point. Pig flesh is their favourite and most consumed meat and as there are 1.3 BILLION of them ( and kept down to that figure by an enforced policy of only one child per family ), consumption of pork certainly does not seem dangerous.

Tony Price ● 6758d

Can anyone recommend a good butchers in Ealing?

Michelle Laurie ● 6758d

Re " Can anyone recommend a good butchers in Ealing? "        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    depends what you call a "good " butcher. There ain't many left, what we have now are loads of halal shops, thanks to the change of the population make-up, ie immigration coupled with the " white flight " ( 2.4 million from London since 1997 ). Tells up something, doesn't it. There are no " traditional" butchers in Ealing's main thoroughfare any more ( used to be many when I moved to Ealing in '72 ). There is one, maybe two in Northfields Ave but I know of no others. Now wait for the cries of racist !, usually from those who are THE racists themselves.

Tony Price ● 6758d

Both the butchers in Northfield Ave are very good, as is the meat counter in Waitrose.

David Fox ● 6758d

Re "  very good, as is the meat counter in Waitrose. "            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      very true, not cheap and the one in Sainsbury's is a joke. Get fed up waiting for someone to appear to serve.

Tony Price ● 6758d

The shop by Sainsbury is good - Luckhurst I think it's called.

Viv Ellis ● 6757d

Richardsons, they have branches in South Ealing and Northfields, is excellent.

Jane Salisbury ● 6757d

It is easy to see how in any place and in any religion thousands of years ago a wise man may have advised at some time not to eat a particular meat.Just look at what happened with beef in this country!  We need to pay more attention to how our meat is raised and not just clamour for cheap food and then waste so much of it.  Shouldn't it tell us when the animals have to be pumped full of antibiotics to survive their living conditions that there is something wrong?  How have we become so blinkered?

Philippa Bond ● 6757d

I agree about Luckhurst's opposite Sainsbury's.  Tony Luckhurst knows his stuff and you'll find a mixture of good value meat and some excellent beef - you may have to ask him for the beef.  And every now and then has meat from farms within 25 miles or so.  Last week he had lamb from one such farm.  Always worth asking him about his beef as he keeps properly hung beef in the cold room and it's not always on show.I personally hope we can learn more respect for food in this country and not see it simply as fuel. I think the age of cheap food is ending and that may force us to treat it with far more respect.

David Highton ● 6757d

Well Gerry I just did some poking around - apparently Oxtail these days refers to the tail of any "beef animal" whereas in ye olden times it referred only to the the tail of an Ox - which is a castrated bull. So there we are.

Viv Ellis ● 6757d

I wouldn't touch halal meat with a bargepole. Not because of the method of killing, but because it's invariably the cheapest and nastiest quality (battery chickens and the like). Anyone ever seen organic free range halal meat in this country?There is some common sense to the biblical rules - pigs, prawns and other shellfish are scavengers - anyone who's been to India might think twice about eating pork if they see what pigs have access to eating (the old 'joke' about the pig at the other end of the toilet isn't that far from the truth in some places). But I wholeheartedly agree that if we are going to eat animals they ought to be raised as nature intended - for both their own sakes and ours.

M. Anderson ● 6757d

Crickey, I used to love oxtail stew - haven't had it for years.  Think I mosey down to Richardson's and buy some to cook again...with carrots, onions and pearl barley...yum!...with lots of rustic bread to dip into the gravy...  or better still, do M&S or Waitrose do a ready cooked oxtail stew?  Anyone?  ;-)

Gerry Tan ● 6757d

Gerry,  when I next do a batch I'll e-mail you some ;)

Viv Ellis ● 6757d

Viv, you're a ***STAR*** !!PS:  How do you cook your oxtail stew? And for how long does it stew?

Gerry Tan ● 6757d

It sounds like it could be a slow-cooker stew.

Philippa Bond ● 6757d

Well, I don't seal the meat 'cos I think it can make it tough. Mine then has celery, carrots, fennel (if there's any  about) onion, a small tin of toms and a tin of condensed tomato soup (v good secret ingredient, condensed soups) . Stew for .... two or three hours. I think it's even better if you cook it the day before.

Viv Ellis ● 6757d

I think you're right there Philippa.Speaking of which, we've had a slow cooker(electrical job) for more than twenty years and we've only used it once(maybe twice).I'll get it down, dust it off and start all over again!  :-(

Gerry Tan ● 6757d

Fennel and a can of tom soup eh?  You're beginning to be influenced by our lovely Delia Viv. nevertheless, I give it a go.

Gerry Tan ● 6757d

Re " The shop by Sainsbury is good - Luckhurst I think it's called. "                xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx          if you mean pricewise, maybe but I am not so sure re other aspects. One has to be very careful where meat comes from etc etc.

Tony Price ● 6757d

Re " How have we become so blinkered?"          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx            Greed !

Tony Price ● 6757d

I'm very pro the slow-cooker which I am learning to use particularly for stews.  I seasoned and browned the last lot of stewing steak in that and it was very successful.  It does need to be there all day for perfection.Passata I guess is the next best thing to condensed soup.Fennel I love - will it last long enough to reach a stew?Do dust down your slow-cooker Gerry.  It is great for making chicken stock from the remains of a roast. Delia's gone too far this time - she will have would be cooks trudging far and wide looking for frozen mash when they have potatoes in the cupboard.

Philippa Bond ● 6756d

In response to the original question about oxtail/beeftail.After the invasion of the French, all of the high end cuts were given the prefix/sufix BEEF (beouf). The "poorer" cuts (ox tail, ox liver, ox tongue etc..) retained the native names.With regard to Halal butchers not selling beef.this is purely an economic decision. ie Hindus would not shop with them if they sold beef. In the same way that muslims will not shop with me because I sell pork. We get a few Sikhs shopping with us for pork.I am also not required to supply institutions such as schools and hospitals because some/most of the "clientelle" insist on halal meat. If non muslims insisted on on meat NOT produced by this barbaric method being supplied to them, the story might be different... but that is a different story for another day maybe.

Tony Luckhurst ● 6530d

My recipe for oxtail stew is quite different, it has a bit of a Jamaican slant.Heat the oven to a very low temperature, about gas mark 1/4 or less.First I soak the pieces in salted water for a few hours, then dry them off. Brown them all over in oil, very very well (just shy of burning is fine!) in a heavy casserole (I have a nice black cast iron thingy) and set aside.Drain off some of the oil/fat so there's enough left to fry some chopped onions, carrots, leeks, turnip and any other root veg you fancy - I tend not to put potatoes in this stew as it is best served with mashed potatoes to soak it up. Add some tomato paste, and a bottle or two of Guinness Export (the stuff made in Africa, 7.5% and much sweeter than the Irish stuff) depending on how much you are making. Add plenty of fresh thyme, possibly some sugar, and some salt. Bring to the boil for a couple of minutes to boil off the booze, and then add the browned oxtail pieces back in. Simmer for 10 minutes or so, skimming off the scum that rises from the meat. When the scum stops coming, just ensure that all the meat is covered by the liquid, put a lid on it, and put it in the oven.I then leave it to cook very slowly for at least 7 hours. Usually there's no need to interfere with it during this time, so I'll get it in the oven on a weekend morning and go out for the day. I've tried it for 5 hours but even then the meat can be a little chewy. The rest of the ingredients completely disintegrate.Normally I won't eat any of it on the same day, I'll leave it overnight to cool, then put it in the fridge in the morning. That night I'll skim off some (but not all!!!) of the fat that forms on the surface, and it's ready to either reheat and serve, or portion up for the freezer, etc.Best served with mashed potatoes or rice. Great winter warmer.I've been looking forward to seeing it back in the window at Richardsons.

Mark Dudley ● 6530d

Re  I am also not required to supply institutions such as schools and hospitals because some/most of the "clientelle" insist on halal meat. If non muslims insisted on on meat NOT produced by this barbaric method being supplied to them,             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      sounds like another example of the tail wagging the dog, or being allowed to. About time the supine ones in this country stood up and said this ie ENGLAND, and we will eat as we always have, and it is you who have to adapt to us, not we to you

Tony Price ● 6530d

I wonder how much of this "Halal" meat is genuinely acquired, ie legal import or traceable home-produced?This could provide hours of employment for the relevant council agents.

Alan Brainsby ● 6527d

This may be of interest:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7730891.stmThe sentence underneath the video item says "are cracking down".Is this BBC-speak for "have just started", we (the BBC) have just found out, or something else?

Alan Brainsby ● 6527d

Re  I wonder how much of this "Halal" meat is genuinely acquired, ie legal import or traceable home-produced            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx          very good question but I wish this country would follow the example of some others eg Switzerland, and ban the muslim, and jewish, method of slaughter. Undoubtedly it was an advancement on what was the practice at that time, which if one is to understand the Torah ? correctly, the behaviour was unbelievable to us now, " Thou shalt not cut a limb from a living animal ", which tells us that what was being done, and not necessarily a whole limb but a piece of flesh, as fancied. The trouble is the Muslims and Jews belive their method of slaughter was the word of God and refuse therefore to depart from it. To prove it is a load of cobblers is to also try to understand the instructions re sacrifice of animals for supposed atonement of sins carried out by humans. Now what God is going either to want or accept the slaughter of an animal in order to forgive a human for his wrongdoing. As in all matters, human civilisation has progressed from the do's and don'ts in the respective " Holy Books " from those early days. I can remember the unease when Israel captured  the whole of Jerusalem in the 6 day war thus the site of The Temple and the suggestion was mooted re bringing back animal sacrifices, which had gone on there until the sacking by the Romans in the !st century.

Tony Price ● 6527d

Do you think the UK's methods of welfare, transport and slaughter for intensively farmed animals and poultry are humane?

Verification Required ● 6527d

Yes.

Alan Brainsby ● 6527d

Re Do you think the UK's methods of welfare, transport and slaughter for intensively farmed animals and poultry are humane?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      no, and I think you will find on the question of welfare, more strict rules have or are being imposed. And I believe in the UK we have standards better than most, do we not. Logically and emotionally I find the killing of any animal / poultry distasteful and hopefully one day, such will be a thing of the past.

Tony Price ● 6527d

I don't either Tony, which is why I eat Soil Assoc. certified organic meat and poultry almost all the time. They are slaughtered much more humanely, the animals do not suffer in transport and are fairly calm until the last. The meat is better for that too. I take it you are a vegetarian then.

Verification Required ● 6527d

Re  I take it you are a vegetarian then.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      sadly no, having been brought as a meat eater, I continue to do so , but avoid meats  such as veal and buy chickens that have had a reasonable lifestyle, eggs also. But I do have guilt feelings at times when eating and am aware of what has taken place. Frogs legs I could never consume as I know they are pulled from a living creature which is then left to die, something I would not wish to condone.

Tony Price ● 6527d

We certainly treat our livestock  better than our citizens or would-be citizens.Welfare - animals don't have to wait weeks for treatment, they receive it within hours. They automatically get vaccinations and the like without their parents interfering.Animals don't have to wait weeks for treatment, they receive it within hours.Transport - they travel inside vehicles unlike some humans who cling for dear life to the outside of freight trains through the channel tunnel or sit in dark containers on lorries.Slaughter - when was the last time, or any time, that an animal was chased through an Underground station booking hall, down an escalator, onto a train and then humanely killed?And aren't the few pesticides and fertilizers used by the Soil Association the most dangerous allowed to any farmer?

Alan Brainsby ● 6527d

You don't half post some rubbish, Alan, don't you.

Verification Required ● 6526d

At least it's only half rubbish unlike the full on rubbish I've just read.

Alan Brainsby ● 6526d

Most frog legs are sourced from India now...The French government has very strict rules about catching and eating home-grown French frogs.

Alan Brainsby ● 6526d

Re  Most frog legs are sourced from India now...          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I thought they all were ?, and having seen the other day on a TV travel programme the way the Indians keep and kill chickens, I am none too impressed. And these are the  Hindus.

Tony Price ● 6526d

Re  And I believe in the UK we have standards better than most, do we not.             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        http://www.ilph.org/makeanoise/      a site relating to transport of horses from eastern europe to Italy for slaughter

Tony Price ● 6524d

Pearce's butcher on South Ealing Rd opposite co-op bit further towards A4 is pretty good and reasonable also.

Keith Iddon ● 6524d

Good tip for any stew using dark meat.Put about 2 thirds of an old style tea cup full of balsamic vinegar in a big pan of stew about an hour before cooking finishes.It makes all the difference.

Keith Iddon ● 6524d

Hello Mr Price,I'm the proprietor of this traditional butcher shop. It's good that you have concerns about how your food is sourced. We certainly do.We only sell English meat, this is because it is our policy to source our meat as locally as posssible. (more locally than the traders on Ealing Farmers Market in fact).Our most "local" supplier is David Jones from Mansfield farm in Uxbridge, from whom we get lambs in season. These are grazed on my own meadow in Iver Heath. We have beef this week from John Whitby at Rowley Farm in Iver Heath (opposite Black Park). The majority of our meat is bought live from local farmers on Thame market and killed close by in Witney, Oxon. We also buy some produce from Smithfield daily, but less so in recent years.We don't have a freezer on our premises as I believe that for good quality meat to be enjoyed at it's best, it should not have been frozen. Only lazy butchers have freezers! A few of my trade qualifications...Past President - National Federation of Meat and Food Traders.Past President - London Retail Meat Traders Assoc.Liveryman - Worshipful Company of Butchers.Member of the Institute of Meat.Member of the Royal Smithfield Club.Awards Board member - Meat Training Council.You'll do well to find a better qualified butcher in the country, let alone Ealing.I hope this goes some way to putting your mind at rest as to your concerns about where our meat comes from.I'm grateful to you for the opportunity to blow my own trumpet, so to speak.I'm happy to answer any other questions about my much loved trade. I reckon I'm a bit of an expert! One more thing... our free-range bronze turkeys will again this year be supplied by the excellent Howard Blackwell of Herons farm in Coggeshall. Google him.Seasons Greetings.Tony Luckhurst.A.J.Luckhurst & Sons.

Tony Luckhurst ● 6523d

Thanks for this information Tony. This discussion has been significant for me in the past week, and one of its effects was me buying a kilo of oxtail from you last Saturday, which I've been enjoying very much since (cooked to the recipe I posted elsewhere in the thread).I have to say I've held what may be a grossly incorrect opinion that perhaps your shop was a bit on the "budget" side..partly due to the location in West Ealing (where I grew up and still live although I'm now in the Northfields area) which is a bit run down and full of £1 stores...and especially with Sainsurys across the way competing with you. I won't buy meat from supermarkets generally, and when I do I only buy organic as it appears it's the only way to be reasonably assured of the animals having been treated well. With the way the supermarkets pressure prices down I have little confidence that their sources of meat aren't forced to cut corners and inevitably that means investment into their product (be it financial or in terms of ethical treatment). I prefer to pay more money for good meat less often, and where possible I prefer to buy from small businesses. I'm very local to Richardsons so I have mostly bought from them in the past 3 years. They're always happy to discuss their sources like yourself, a quality I think is essential from a customer's point of view. I won't buy chicken from them though as it's normally neither free range nor organic.It's great that you source your meat locally. However I'm also concerned not just with the locality of the source, but the quality of the husbandry and the care the animals receive. Would you be able to comment on this with regard to your store? I'm particularly interested in the pork and chicken, as I understand these tend to be the livestock that receive the worst treatment as a result of mass production.Also I read somewhere today, possibly on the West Ealing Neighbours website, that you will brine a brisket of beef for salt beef. Do you still offer that service?Many thanks.

Mark Dudley ● 6523d

Re  I'm grateful to you for the opportunity to blow my own trumpet, so to speak.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      thank you for your reply, very interesting and reassuring.

Tony Price ● 6523d