Forum Topic

Knife and gun crime

What is it with youngsters in London that there's an alarming increase in horrendous knife crime killing and sometimes death by guns?  Are we adults to blame?  Or it it society in general?

Gerry Tan ● 6665d37 Comments

As most things there are a number of factors - parents, society, peer pressure, crime and so on and so forth. And then there are some that are just bad apples. Then you get kids who arm themselves for "protection" and it becomes a self perpetuating problem.

Trizia Fiorellino ● 6665d

The police seem to have set up camp at Acton Town recently - in numbers - and have been searching young men and then getting tem to walk through a detector. Don't know what the haul is so far though.

Sara Nathan ● 6665d

Occasionally in the past, my wife and I have stopped youngsters when we've seen them throw rubbish in the streets. Not anymore. We'll be keeping schtum, in case they whip out a knife and get nasty.  Sad really.

Gerry Tan ● 6665d

It boils down to discipline, and no boundaries set by some parents who believe that their children can do no wrong, even when evidence is provided to the fact. Teachers have no chance of disciplining unruly and disruptive children because ANY form of punishment is outlawed and some of these kids capitalise on it by being disruptive, and as we have all witnessed by being violent out on the streets.I don't know what planet the government lives on by proudly announcing that they will now prosecute not only 18 year olds and above, but 16 year olds and above as well.......Hello! had nobody noticed that youngsters as young as 8, have been known to carry a knife, and unless ALL are prosecuted this problem will not go away. The sentence for carrying a knife is 5 years, but as far as I am aware, and I stand to be corrected, only two have received this sentence. The ones to blame, but not entirely are the liberal left and the PC brigade, led by "Liberty" who protest at every initiative to curb violence, unfortunately the silent majority are as usual ignored by politicians, and that is why New Labour were beaten at the  by election at Henley recently, and I am sure that it would not have escaped their notice, that they got fewer votes that the BNP, but this would have gone completely over their heads!

Account suspended ● 6665d

Andrew wrote: >that is why New Labour were beaten at the  by election at Henley

David Fox ● 6664d

"Perhaps some form of public humiliation (stocks and rotten tomatoes come to mind) might do the trick..."I rather warm to this excellent idea of yours David.  But where in Ealing would you site these stocks?I'd like to suggest a few others for the rotten tomato treatment - hows about Mr Robert Mugabe for his disdain of democracy, Mr Abu Quatada for rubbishing Britain and all things British and having the cheek to claim benefits. Oh and perhaps Mr Rafa Nadal for humiliating our long lanky laddie from Dunblane.  ;-)

Gerry Tan ● 6664d

"I rather warm to this excellent idea of yours David.  But where in Ealing would you site these stocks?"Haven Green."I'd like to suggest a few others for the rotten tomato treatment - hows about Mr Robert Mugabe for his disdain of democracy, Mr Abu Quatada for rubbishing Britain and all things British and having the cheek to claim "benefits. Oh and perhaps Mr Rafa Nadal for humiliating our long lanky laddie from Dunblane.  ;-)"Not the well behaved Nadal, but Murray in the stocks for insulting England in the past.

Graham Weeks ● 6664d

Totally agree re. Murray - he sadly seems to have that chip that many Scots have on their shoulder.

Trizia Fiorellino ● 6664d

Anyone remember a Monty Python sketch from the late 60s/early 70s suggesting that the Scots couldn't play tennis?

Alan Brainsby ● 6664d

I was born in 1969 and just don't "get" alot of Monty Python humour...and yes I know that makes me a philistine

Trizia Fiorellino ● 6664d

"...and yes I know that makes me a philistine"Thats a place near ISRAEL isn't it?

Account suspended ● 6664d

"Mr Abu Quatada for rubbishing Britain and all things British and having the cheek to claim benefits."Or this PC government for allowing him to do so!!!

Account suspended ● 6664d

How do you stop him?Should the law be changed so that anyone coming in on an illegal passport doesn't get benefits? And that wouldn't stop his children doing so - some of them were born here.The government want him out - that's not very PC is it? But the judges say it's illegal...should the law be changed and if so what to? Surely we still want the judges independent of the executive even if we disagree with their judgments.Or do we just wait for the Law Lords - though I bet they don't overturn the appeal court given their recent decision on anonymous evidence.

Sara Nathan ● 6664d

On the basis that for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction,what are the options to a Politically Correct Government,and do we want it?

Tony Wood ● 6664d

Our younger generation dont seem to be scared of anyone or anything and the reasons for this are simple.... there are no real deterrants and the kids " know their rights "Most of it stems from school where they know the teachers are not allowed to punish them which means they can be mouthy,unruly and thoroughly unpleasant. Their parents powers have been seriously eroded so there is no real threat at home.... basically we have a generation of youngsters who deem themselves as "untouchable".Whats needed is to turn the tables on these little darlings... forget blaming the parents as the youngsters will always do what they want to do REGARDLESS of what their parents say,think or do. I suggest bringing back the cane at school, if your found with a knife it should be an immediate 5 year sentence and a gun should be 10 years and once in prison they should be MADE to do community work and see the utter devastation their actions cause.

Andy Wright ● 6662d

Our younger generation dont seem to be scared of anyone or anything and the reasons for this are simple.... there are no real deterrants and the kids " know their rights "Most of it stems from school where they know the teachers are not allowed to punish them which means they can be mouthy,unruly and thoroughly unpleasant. Their parents powers have been seriously eroded so there is no real threat at home.... basically we have a generation of youngsters who deem themselves as "untouchable".Whats needed is to turn the tables on these little darlings... forget blaming the parents as the youngsters will always do what they want to do REGARDLESS of what their parents say,think or do. I suggest bringing back the cane at school, if your found with a knife it should be an immediate 5 year sentence and a gun should be 10 years and once in prison they should be MADE to do community work and see the utter devastation their actions cause.

Andy Wright ● 6662d

"I suggest bringing back the cane at school, if your found with a knife it should be an immediate 5 year sentence and a gun should be 10 years and once in prison they should be MADE to do community work and see the utter devastation their actions cause."AndyI think you will find that the 5 year sentence is already available to the courts, but judges seem to be reluctant to use it, either for PC reasons (the dreaded Human Rights Act!) or they have been "advised" not to, because of lack of prison space. My suggestion would be to bring back into use, ex military camps, guarded by military police, not private contractors. I am sure that this forum could suggest what should take place once these feral kids are confined there! One suggestion would be to show them on film, and hear from affected families, the devastation caused by their actions, the Newlove family is one family that springs to mind, or Stephen Lawrences family.The Home Office should IMO have a rethink about the recent announcement, that 16 year olds and above should now face prosecution, where hitherto it had been 18 years and above. Every child/youth/adult found in unauthorised possession of any knife, should and MUST be prosecuted, the punishment should be determined by their record of criminality. Deterrents, as you have said are non existent, but in today's newspaper, 2 white boys received detention at school for not praying to Allah, even though it was not their religion........so in some circumstances, there is minor punishments available, why not upgrade and use other measures?

Account suspended ● 6662d

I really hate to hear of all the knife and gun crime taking place in England.    Having grown up over there during W.W.2 years and attended Chiswick Community School, I can only say that in my schooldays we had a very healthy respect for our teachers, and they ruled us with an iron hand. We were made to obey the rules (which were many) and address our teachers respectfully.     In my opinion the problem is lack of discipline in the home and in the schools. The results we are now seeing everywhere, with rude, selfish and sometimes violent adults.    I would not want to be a teacher today, it must be the most frustrating job to try to teach a bunch of savages! Hopefully those in charge will soon come to their senses and bring back discipline and learning to the classroom.

Doris M. Lediard ● 6662d

So you're the same age as the Monty Python sketch I was referring to. That sketch and that of the American obsession with body hygiene, and possibly the pharmacy (where the pharmacist appears carrying a variety of medicines and calls out "Who's got a headache? Who's got the pox?) are the only bits of MP I ever thought funny...                    ... the rest was dire, but then it was BBC.

Alan Brainsby ● 6661d

Another one,in Putney, this morning.Thankfully,not killed.

Keith Iddon ● 6661d

We only have the Daily Mail's evidence - usually unreliable - that they are on benefit. I would have thought it unlikely benefit would run to a whole house in our rather desirable street, so I imagine the community must be supporting him. The terms of his bail would prevent him from doing a job - even if he wanted to - so that's not the answer either.

Sara Nathan ● 6660d

As long as a family can justify the size of house they live in and the rent is the market rate, ie not uplifted, then Housing Benefit will cover the rent, council tax, and essential maintenance.

Alan Brainsby ● 6660d

"We only have the Daily Mail's evidence - usually unreliable - that they are on benefit."It is open season for stating that the Mail's evidence is usually "unreliable", can you give a couple of examples. The mail reported how much these scumbags have cost us the  taxpayers, in legal aid, nobody has denied that either, or in this litigious age that we are in now, one would have thought that the lawyers would be having a field day with libel actions. I find your remark about housing benefit very naive, but an answer has been suggested in a previous post! I will remind you of the benefits and housing given to the hijackers from Afghanistan, who had threatened to kill the hostages, this PC government will bend over backwards to give benefits to these characters, and at the same time denying treatment to cancer and alzheimer's sufferers, so where you get your perception of "unlikely" comes from....heaven only knows!

Account suspended ● 6660d

The young man killed in Bethnal Green last night is from Hanwell.

Jane Salisbury ● 6660d

Indeed, he was a friend of my daughter's. He attended Elthorne Park High School and certainly wasn't involved in any knife crime or gangs. He had the temerity to be in East London dressed as a 'grunger'.

Penny Crocker ● 6659d

Yes, a friend of my daughter and her boyfriend too :-(We've known him since junior school.My daughter's boyfriend has lost 4 friends in not much more than a year (only one from natural causes)- it's heartbreaking.

Jane Salisbury ● 6658d

That's shocking - what's the best and quickest way to stop all this senseless killing?

Gerry Tan ● 6658d

Have you noticed a stepping up in police activity? I have...they have been stop and searching young men for knives at Acton Town station - complete with ewalk through equipment as in airports...and there has been a huge operation on the South Acton Estate for the last few days by police, community police, sniffer dogs and the like. The problem is, one has no idea what, if anything, this achieves.

Sara Nathan ● 6658d

When I worked on Nationwide and Breakfast TV as a researcher - OK a long time ago - I checked out Mail stories on a daily basis. I never once found one that was wholly accurate. Not once.Now, I am a Daily Mail reader. I have taken it since I was 10...I remember it pre-tabloid and when "Femail" was a Tuesday  treat. But I have never believed much of it: it's feature ideas are brilliant; it knows its audience perfectly but "accuracy and impartiality" codes of the sort broadcasters have to obey? Not likely. I have no idea who is paying for our neighbour's house - maybe it is benefit: two parents and five children in a four bedroom house sounds possible. Or maybe it's their community. I don't know. I reckon the Mail doesn't either.

Sara Nathan ● 6658d

"Have you noticed a stepping up in police activity? I have...they have been stop and searching young men for knives at Acton Town station - complete with ewalk through equipment as in airports...and there has been a huge operation on the South Acton Estate for the last few days by police, community police, sniffer dogs and the like. The problem is, one has no idea what, if anything, this achieves." Police officers have to routinely give out a form over a foot long, explaining why that person has been stopped. If this happens in Brixton for example it's sods law that he/she will be black, similarly in Southall, Heston, Cranford, those stopped will be of Asian origin. If anyone from these groups think that they have been stopped unfairly, there are opportunities and procedures to complain about it and for it to be addressed, and with Human Rights lawyers coming out of the woodwork, I have not heard of many from these groups doing so,it would be interesting to hear from the police about the latesr figures available.It won't achieve anything whatsoever, if people, organisations, and politicians continually harp on about one community or another, being stopped more than others, or being cynical about what it achieves. If they take one knife off the streets doing this, then it is one life potentially saved! We have the best police force in the world let us all get behind them, and take back the streets!If our youngsters are to be kept safe on our streets, the police have to be trusted to carry out stop and search procedures........the alternative is the status quo, with more deaths on our streets!

Account suspended ● 6658d

Today the BBC London news is full of "four stabbings in one day". I therefore thankfully assume that the poor soul who was stabbed at the bus stop on Ruislip Road East yesterday afternoon has survived and therefore does not feature in this grim statistic.Presumably soap powder sells better when stabbed means killed rather than injured.

Piero Vitelli ● 6655d

For God's sake, when will all these horrendous assaults end?  What have we done to deserve this?  What should we be doing to end this horror?  :-(

Gerry Tan ● 6655d

I wan't suggesting it was particularly targetted - except at young males which seems sensible - certainly the guys I saw being searched were both white and there was no sign of a form in sight - nor a knife for that matter.One of the problems is that we as a society stigmatize young men as a group. My son - a fairly harmless boy with good manners but a big chap and often in a hoody - finds the assumptions made by adults positively humiliating - as is their stunned response when he does something particularly polite or helpful. There is a lot of knife crime. There's also a media frenzy. The two feed off each other to some extent: minor incidents and scuffles with knives, which I suspect have happened for centuries to some extent, are being reported more than they were...there may indeed be more of them but I don't think you can be sure of that yet. Major incidents do indeed seem to be up but is other violence down? I don't know but I am not sure the media analysts do either.

Sara Nathan ● 6655d

Racist

Al Stuart ● 6649d

Racist..........who is, and why? explain please!

Account suspended ● 6649d

Re - " I suggest bringing back the cane at school, if your found with a knife it should be an immediate 5 year sentence and a gun should be 10 years and once in prison they should be MADE to do community work and see the utter devastation their actions cause."          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        Users of knives and guns Andy I don't think would be over concerned with a caning and there would not be enough prison places in which to place carriers of weapons. The sooner someone in " authority " has the guts to come out with the truth that the knife and gun culture is in one part of society, in the main, not totally of course, and then we might have better chance of dealing with the problem, which is a most "unBritish " one. That part of society blighted by this problem is one where the VAST majority of the male youths have no father at home, some say 80%, some say 69% but whichever, a frightening situation. I read today, the parents of such youths are blaming the govt. for not doing enough to bring their children up. I would say the responsibility lies with them. And it is not a question of coming from deprived backgrounds. The areas seen on TV News where these people come from are mostly nice looking areas. It is a question of lack of parental control and guidance coupled with a complete disregard for authority.

Tony Price ● 6648d

Re-"The problem is, one has no idea what, if anything, this achieves."        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        I am sure the Police have a better idea as to what they are doing  and why. Don't be upset that they don't consult you.

Tony Price ● 6648d