Forum Topic

Disputing a PCN

Two weeks ago Linda was given a PCN for allegedly being in a CPZ after the start time.  The time on the ticket said five minutes past three o'clock and that time excludes the time spent speaking to (yelling at?) the enforcement officer.  However on entering the car the car-clock showed just one minute past three o'clock, on arriving home we took a great deal of trouble to verify the accuracy of the car-clock and it was just 30 seconds out.  This means that Linda had NOT contravened any parking regulations and implies that the device for issuing the ticket had an inaccurate time, which further implies that the ticket was fraudulently issued or the officer was incompetent for not checking the accuracy of the device before leaving his office.Naturally we are contesting the validity of this PCN, first we sent a letter, then followed that with a fax, then finally, today we sent an e-mail, all this within 14 days.  Now the problem is, we have yet to hear from Ealing Parking Services and my question is how long does it normally take to get a response?  Have they realised there has been an error and it is being quietly dropped or is it normal to wait longer than 14 days before they reply to communications, perhaps hoping you will panic and just send the alleged penalty fee.What have been your experiences in contesting an inappropriate PCN and how long did you have to wait for a response?

Peter Wright ● 6636d34 Comments

If it's in Ealing, the parking services are notoriously inefficient so it could take ages - but they are unlikely to drop it silently. I always reply to every letter speedily - apart from the ones where I am admittedly guilty and therefore just pay up - and make it clear that I positively relish the thought of going to the parking tribunal. The suggestion that appearing at the tribunal would be somehow fulfilling a lifetime's ambition always seems to discourage a local authority from being too officious - especially if they are in the wrong.I haven't so far had to go nor paid a ticket that I felt was  wrong and unfair.

Sara Nathan ● 6636d

Thanks for the information Sara.We had the letter from Parking Services this morning rejecting our representations to have the PCN rescinded, on the rejection notice is a photograph of Linda just pulling away from the kerb, timed at five minutes past three o'clock.Now remembering that the PCN was timed at five minutes past three o'clock and was being printed as Linda was walking up to the car.  On arriving at the car she spoke to the officer, she got into the car, noticed the time in the car at one minute past three, got out of the car, spoke to the officer again and was handed ticket, got back into the car, starts the engine, checks to see if anything is coming, just starts to pull away and the photograph is taken, and a photograph shows the same time as the PCN printer of several minutes previously.  Now can anyone dispute our desire to raise a furious complaint with the Adjudicator Service?

Peter Wright ● 6634d

Its officious bullying.  If you are cross enough you'll make the time to pursue this.

Philippa Bond ● 6634d

Go for it. Write straight back saying all that you have put in the thread and adding your thrilled-ness at going to the tribunal. My favourite line - true which helps - is "I have sat on many tribunals, but have never appeared in front of one and it would be a real professional development opportunity for me to do that, so I positively look forward to meeting your representatives at the tribunal. Yours etc..."A friend staying with me overnight got a ticket this morning - infuriating - but I had forgotten to put a card on her car so was bang to rights guv...luckily could sneak out, whip it off the windscreen and pay it before she noticed.But when you are right and they are wrong - fight, fight, fight!

Sara Nathan ● 6634d

I disputed a PCN for parking in a residents bay outside my house in a CPZ with a valid parking permit. The parking attendent gave me a ticket as he beleived the space was a pay and display bay.I pursued it and it when Ealing rejected the appeal, I took it to court. I won and Ealing council were ordered to pay the costs and paint new road markings.

Nadia Shaw ● 6634d

Hi - can I draw your attention to www.appealnow.comThis site is run by Barrie Segal, a renowed authority on disputed PCNs and a champion for the bullied driver. I've heard him many a time on Talksport and he really knows his stuff.

Pete Gregory ● 6634d

Thanks for that Pete we will have a look.

Peter Wright ● 6634d

"A friend staying with me overnight got a ticket this morning - infuriating - but I had forgotten to put a card on her car so was bang to rights guv...luckily could sneak out, whip it off the windscreen and pay it before she noticed."You are the kind of friend we all want!

Graham Weeks ● 6633d

The council department dealing with PCN are some of the most unhelpful unprofesional degenerates I've ever come across. I would invest a lunch hour chasing them up by phone(you will need an hour!)to check they received your letters. Then ask them how the timing is calibrated they might have radio controlled timers but I think you should at least waste as much of there time as you can to reduce there profitability. The purpose of traffic wardens is to improve safety and congestion but thats not the agenda they have its all about the money!Alan www.homesearchconsultancy.com

Alan Cooper ● 6632d

A similar thing happened to me last year. I got back to my car with seconds to spare, but a parking officer was waiting for me. A witness kindly stepped in to help my case, arguing that he had seen her watching me racing along the road with three kids. While we stood discussing the fairness of the ticket the time elapsed and she was within her rights to issue it. I appealed it but got nowhere. I should have taken it further, but didn't have the time. I have another question. Two friends of mine have received fines recently when they actually had a parking voucher on their car dashboards. I checked and they were filled out correctly and positioned visibly. I took a picture of them before remembering that this could easily have been staged! How do you prove your case in a situation like that?

Charlie Canniff ● 6632d

I'm not sure the incredibly inefficient people in Ealing parking are capable of doing a time and motion, is it really worth doing this, survey....so that might be rather time-cosuming, boring and frustrating...after all they are paid by the hour "worked" not by the brevity of the phone calls or the satisfaction given. So it's no skin off the apparatchiks in the office's nose if you witter on for ever.I'm for lots of letters - quicker in the long run AND you have the evidence

Sara Nathan ● 6631d

Here's my recent experience at a car park in Acton. Although both the ticket dispensing machines were out of order and I left a dashboard note stating this, I was still booked. A parking inspector arrived as I was about to leave and he agreed the machines were out of order. He gave me his staff number and said I should explain what happened in a letter to the parking office. In my presence, he reported the faulty machines to the control room. Despite this, Ealing Parking Services insists the machines were working and refuses to cancel the ticket.This would be of no concern to you were it not for two other cases concerning the CPZ in my street. CASE ONE: A visitor to one of our residents was booked at a weekend when no CPZ restrictions apply. When the visitor complained, he was sent a note insisting that parking restrictions did apply in our street on that day. As “proof”, the visitor was sent a photograph of a sign showing seven-day-a-week restrictions. Fine – except that the sign was from an entirely different zone several streets away.CASE TWO: A resident parked a car in the street with a permit displayed on the dashboard. A ticket was issued on the grounds that the start time was obscured. As it was an All Day permit, the start time was irrelevant, but parking services still refused to cancel the ticket.These three cases provide further evidence that Ealing Parking Service has an admit-nothing policy in the hope that the alleged offenders will just give up and pay the fines.

Ian D. Richardson ● 6627d

Well, don't give up. I had a ticket in similar circumstances - three machines out of order around East Acton Tube. I wrote a fairly assertive letter - with map details - and was told they had cancelled it pretty quickly. You have to look as if it is just not worth anyone's while to pursue it because you are never, ever going to give up and go away. Write back fast, frequently and tersely.

Sara Nathan ● 6627d

I think it is about time we had some response from Ealing Council about these accusations of something rotten in the parking services wood shed.  Something short, accurate and without bull would be much appreciated please.

Peter Wright ● 6627d

There was a recent acknowledgment that all was not well - Maybe in Around Ealing - or at least it said there were going to be changes and reorganization and the subtext between the lines was that they were swamped by complaints.

Sara Nathan ● 6627d

Received notice of decline of challenge today. We will of course be taking this further. Some people may think that the sun shines out the parking service's backsides but it don't no more because we are sticking this notice so the sun won't shine no more!It's not the money it's the principle.                                    The fight goes on!

Peter Wright ● 6619d

What does "notice of decline of challenge" mean? That the council will no longer pursue you through the courts?If the council persists in taking me to court over my penalty notice, I will seek costs on the grounds that it is a malicious prosecution without any foundation whatever.

Ian D. Richardson ● 6619d

This is it and they can claim what they like, their device is wrong!       

Peter Wright ● 6619d

If you wish to pursue this, you'll now have to await the Notice to Owner, and make a formal representation against it to Ealing, giving full details and times of the sequence of events and what you did to check the time of your car clock.  Only if that fails do you have the chance of appealing to the adjudicator.I note that the letter mentions the CEO's hand-held computer, but doesn't mention his camera which has an independent clock. I would expect there to be a photo of Linda's car stationary to support the PCN, and it will be interesting to see what time is on it. If it is before the time on the PCN, that may suggest that the synchronisation of clocks is not being done properly.Good luck!Note to Ian:  the courts are not involved these days.  The process is explained on the PATAS (adjudicators') site at:http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/TMAClampvParking.htmYour ability to claim costs is very limited. See:http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/TMAYourQuestions.htm#q10

Richard Jennings ● 6619d

We are now at the 'Notice to Owner' stage and we are standing our ground.

Peter Wright ● 6597d

Oh for goodness sake - what on earth are things coming to.  Linda clearly was not out to defraud anyone - and even if the clock on the car was wrong, the timed photo from the attendant clearly proves that the car owner was at the car within 5 minutes of the allotted time - so where is reason?  :-(

Sarah Felstead ● 6597d

So am I. But I will never, ever pay this fraudulent parking fine.

Ian D. Richardson ● 6587d

You'll find that a week or so before the case is due to be heard by the independent adjudicator, Ealing will cancel the ticket. Hold your nerve!

Paul Cavanagh ● 6581d

Thank you. I will not give in on this one. This is what I have told the parking people, and I mean every word: "This is a malicious and utterly dishonest attempt to bully me into paying a fraudulent fine. I will never, ever pay this."

Ian D. Richardson ● 6581d

The best approach to dealing with issues like this is always to not personalise it. The poor guy dealing with your query is not responsible for policy and probably has a degree of sympathy with you. Ranting at them may be cathartic but isn't likely to help your cause. The people to rant at are the Councillors who actually have the power to change things.

Paul Cavanagh ● 6576d

My neighbour told me yesterday that a Suspended Bay Notice a few doors from me, was put up at 2.30 in the morning.  What on earth are council employees skulking about in the early hours for?  Do we pay them unsociable hours wages for this?  I would ring Ealing Parking Services but can't face it having had my fair share of run ins with them and knowing they will probably spout complete rubbish.

Maggie Dodge ● 6576d

The problem was stopping to chat. Driving off before he placed it on the car was the answer.

Colin Murphy ● 6575d

'My neighbour told me yesterday that a Suspended Bay Notice a few doors from me, was put up at 2.30 in the morning. 'When did the notice start to apply?

Andy Jones ● 6569d

Is two days notice really all they need to give for a bay suspension? We often don't use our car during the week and could easily miss the bay suspension signs. Also what happens if someone is away for the two days the signs are up?

Paul Cavanagh ● 6566d

Well in our case it would have been enough but I really have no idea what happens if you are away, something awful knowing the Council !

Maggie Dodge ● 6565d

There was one case a while back in which the contractors painted lines around a car parked where a CPZ was set up and then towed the car away.There is clearly a policy of giving as little notice and publicity as possible for bay suspensions in an attempt to maximise revenues from unsuspecting residents.

Paul Cavanagh ● 6561d

Anyone know what we can do about it!

Maggie Dodge ● 6559d

Copy all appeal correspondence in these ludicrous cases to Phil Taylor who is the portfolio holder in charge. Also mention in the letter that you are copying him in on it. Because this is all individuals being dealt with by a big beuracracy we stand no chance. Basically Disciplinary rules should be brought in so that people who give out silly tickets get the sack. And everyone should be encouraged to take Ealing/APCOA to the small claims court for loss of earnings etc.

Peter Chadburn ● 6558d

Many Ealing borough CPZs have inadequate signeage. If you post here where you got a ticket you may find that someone knows about an error for that particular zone. There should be a sign on each side of the road on the entry to every zone - if there is not then every ticket issued is invalid.

Paul Cavanagh ● 6555d