Forum Topic

David Dix · 09/18/2008 14:20:00

new.EalingToday.co.uk Communtity Forum Topic posting

EB STATION PARKING FINE!!!!!!!!

Apols if this subject has been broached, and dealt with, before. Yesterday I received a Penalty Charge Notice advising me of a £100 fine after my wife was captured on film dropping my daughter off outside Ealing Broadway station recently, on a SUNDAY MORNING!! A HUNDRED QUID!! And she must have been there all of five seconds - enough time for a remote camera to take TWO separate photographs of the scene of this heinous crime. A local friend of mine warned me of this about a year ago. Someone he knew dropped their wife or husband off at the station every weekday morning for two weeks and got one thousand pounds' worth of fines through the post in one go!Does anyone else think this is outrageous?? Stations are traditionally places where people get dropped off from cars. That's how people (with baggage) get to the station!! Trouble is, Ealing Broadway has no parking available for some considerable distance.. all around, in every direction, are double yellow lines (including on the service road up to the entrance), the parking bays are private, and the rest is one huge long bus stop, where my wife got zapped. Did you know you couldn't stop in a bus stop for a few seconds to drop someone off??? I didn't - but then ignorance is no defence. I'd like to know if anyone has challenged one of these PCNs before, on what grounds and whether they were successful. If not, at least i've had a rant (in the knowledge that some of our humble councillors - the more elightened ones - visit this forum from time to time to gauge the views of the people who vote them into office and pay their expenses).

David Dix ● 6586d40 Comments

It may be outrageous, certainly unreasonable, but you do admit that you warned.

Susan Kelly ● 6586d

It has been raised before and I think the conclusion was that if it is an Ealing council ticket, you probably haven't got much going for you but that if it is a private camera, you are within your rights to fight. At least that's how I recall the ticketing thread ending up.

Sara Nathan ● 6586d

"Ealing Broadway has no parking available for some considerable distance.. all around, in every direction, are double yellow lines"You are allowed to stop on a double yellow line to drop off or pick up passengers. (Highway Code, page 115)Your only defence against a fine for stopping at a bus stop might be that the Highway Code (2007 edition, rule 243) doesn't indicate that it's prohibited by law. (It says "DO NOT stop", rather than "You MUST NOT stop", the latter being the phrase used to indicate legal requirements rather than mere advice.) I've no idea whether the Council or, more likely, an Adjudicator whould be swayed by that.

Richard Jennings ● 6586d

http://www.nnet-server.com/server/app/forum/ShowMessage.asp?ID=299894

Philippa Bond ● 6586d

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe if I'd taken the trouble to read the Highway Code sometime since I passed my test in 1969 I'd have known that. (Come on, own up, who does?) I also now have it on the highest authority that the Council will allow you to drop off and pick up on the yellow lines on the one-way road that crosses Haven Green diagonally. However, the Council has no jurisdiction over the little drive-in that runs up to the station entrance (and Clarks shoes, the card shop, Starbucks etc). That is a PRIVATE ROAD so be warned. I'm about to pay the fine now, so I'm within the period of grace when you have to pay only £50. I'd like to reiterate in my defence it was my wife who got caught, not me..

David Dix ● 6585d

Just spotted this one. I regularly drop-off and pick up from the forecourt at ealing broadway with never a problem.You haven't been stopping on the white zig-zags on the road per chance?These are a no stop zone imposed to provide a clear drivers view of the pelcan crossing for pedestrian safety.

John Perkins ● 6582d

Most enlightened administrations recognise that people have to be dropped off at stations and a 5-minute grace period is allowed. However, these days such matters are more about revenue gathering than traffic control.An ex-Hanwell resident I now live in New Zealand where there is a tremendous ruckus going on as a leaked paper proves that the police have ticketing quotas to meet which tends to prove the point.I wish you guys all good fortune in challenging these gratuitous money-grabbers.

John Chant ● 6581d

There used to be a system in Ealing in which the company who employed the parking attendants got more money per ticket the more they issued. This was scrapped with great fanfare when the Conservatives took over but they seem to be finding new ways to make up any resulting shortfall.

Andy Jones ● 6580d

Yes well,keeping the rate rises low isn't cheap you know,it has to come from somewhere,motorists are easy picking...more CPZs on the way hurrah! (sic).Anyone seen a Park Ranger lately?

Tony Wood ● 6579d

Regarding: the interesting results of Lambeth's new parking control company- 1/3rd of the staff could have been working illegally for the old company.Does this mean that a ticket issued by an illegal worker may not have any validity?I ask as Ealing employs the same company, Apcoa, that Lambeth sacked.

Alan Brainsby ● 6576d

I doubt you could prove that the individual ticket had been issued by an illegal immigrant.The front page story quotes Ealing Council as saying they have been assured by Apcoa that they don't employ illegal immigrants. I'm sure Lambeth received the same assurances.

Paul Cavanagh ● 6576d

Never having received a parking ticket I am treading on unknown ground.Surely the operative must authenticate the ticket with some identifying feature, eg his/her identification number?As a responsible council Ealing Borough should examine the efficacy of Apcoa, or indeed any other contractor, as a matter of course, both before AND during hiring them.After all, it's our Council Tax monies that are being spent. Like central government the Borough has no money of its own.

Alan Brainsby ● 6576d

No one has asked Mr Dix what his offence was. I expect it was either stopping on the zig-zags designed to keep pedestrians safe or stopping on a bus stop designed to allow public transport to work efficiently and safely. If Mr Dix doesn't want to pick up tickets he might avoid stopping where he shouldn't. APCOA only manage the borough's parking attendants. CCTV operators are council employees.

Phil Taylor ● 6576d

Whether the infringement was caught by CCTV or a patrolling officer doesn't alter the question I posed.Indeed are the CCTV operators, whether directly employed by the council or contracted, illegal workers?

Alan Brainsby ● 6576d

for the 97th time it wasn't my offence, it was my wife's. As a result i've given her 100 lines and stopped her housekeeping for a month.Now that I've been given chapter and verse I understand she was caught, on a bus stop, bang to rights and we've paid the fine. At the time it seemed nonsensical to me that there seemed to be nowhere in the vicinity of the station where passengers could be legally picked up and dropped off, but I now know that there is - the single (or is it double?) yellow lines on the straight road that crosses Haven Green diagonally. But if you weren't a close reader of the ealing.today forum, and even if you'd read the Highway Code religiously every week since you pass your driving test, you still wouldn't know that the double-yellow-lined station forecourt was private property and therefore offlimits. I don't believe there's any signage to tell you this, which still seems to me very unfair. And I still feel sorry for my mate's mate who last year got two weeks' worth of tickets, amounting to a grand, in one go.

David Dix ● 6574d

David,You have my sympathy - I know having been there that Ealings approach to parking and dropping off at the station is non-sensical.It is not clear where you should stop or not and seems mad to me that on a Sunday, when there was little likelihood that your wife was obstructing anyone, you get fined for stopping for a few seconds. In this case the law is an Ass and so are those council workers and elected officials that hide behind it. I expect this is a very nice earner for Ealing Council and should be used to pay for better signage (there is little of much use and you need to stop to read it - catch 22) and access to EB station for those of use who persist in driving - but I doubt this will ever happen!I am sure those parties who are enforcing this will point out that I am only a bitter offender - which I clearly am - but those of us hit by this will be voting with this sort of farcical situation in mind next election.

Niall Connolly ● 6574d

"But if you weren't a close reader of the ealing.today forum, and even if you'd read the Highway Code religiously every week since you pass your driving test, you still wouldn't know that the double-yellow-lined station forecourt was private property and therefore offlimits."In which case you'd enter the private road in blissful ignorance, and drop your passenger off on the double yellow line there. There would seem to be no basis for any sort of penalty for doing so. Has anyone ever had a "PCN" from the owner's agent for stopping briefly on the double yellows, as opposed to parking in the reserved bays?

Richard Jennings ● 6574d

This shameful situation outside Ealing Bdwy station was brought to the Council's attention at the last Ealing Area Cttee in April. Numerous protests have been made about the unaceptable situation created by the shutting off of the slip road and the erection of the camera. However, I was pleased recently to be able to drive in to the slip road and drop off my passenger. There was even a blue notice stating IN. This slip road is private property, owned by Glenkerrin, the developers. I don't know who put the double yellow lines there as it is not a public highway. But in case you are still worried, it is perfectly legal to 'unload' on double yellow lines at any time of the day, anywhere. That nasty camera is designed to catch people stopping on the white ziz zags. So just drive into the slip road. Do protest to your councillors about the camera. The decision to erect it was not taken democratically by the Council, by the way.

Ann Pav ● 6570d

As with so many parking issues these days, I find the problem is not always knowing what is and isn't allowed. Take loading bays how many of us know the rules behind using them, its not simply a question of are you loading something, you have to be driving a suitably heavy vehicle, but it doesn't say so. So carry a copy of the Highway Code at all times!

Maggie Dodge ● 6568d

I agree - Its not just a matter of not knowing whats allowable and when but also the intolerance of the establishment (by which I mean Ealing Council and/or their subcontractors) when enforcing these. The words "reasonable" and "fair" don't seem to be in their vocabulary. Carrying a copy of the highway code will not help as you will have to stop somewhere to read/consult it and by doing so you will be fined under the current regime. You can obviously appeal if you feel that the fine is unfair but this is unlikely to get you anywhere. I wish our esteemed councillors would actually address this issue rather than hiding behind their "Ealing working for you" banners and stop spouting "you should know the highway code better". However - I suspect this is just an exercise in taxation rather than anything else and they cannot justify this no matter how many times they try. Fining people for a few seconds stopping where no obstruction can be shown is just plain wrong.

Niall Connolly ● 6568d

The pavement of the west side of the road opposite Ealing Broadway station has been narrowed and the roadway widened.There is now a loading area AND a 5 minute stopping place just large enough for one car.Maybe Ealing Council is getting like Tesco and listening to customer(?) comments.I hope they enforce the 5 minute period rigorously.

Alan Brainsby ● 6565d

I now drop my family of at Mount Park Road and let them walk down to the station or better still North Ealing station. Driving into Ealing now I feel I'm being watched and its very creepy. They wonder why Ealing is loosing custom! Well I'm not surprised if you treated like a criminal as soon as you drive into the broadway!

Pete Gregory ● 6565d

How can they enforce the 5 minutes rule, does that mean a parking attendant has to be almost constantly on duty at that spot?

Maggie Dodge ● 6565d

There is a CCTV camera just a few metres away.

Alan Brainsby ● 6565d

Oh the dreaded cameras, forgot about them. Always catch the parking offenders, but not the robbers!!

Maggie Dodge ● 6565d

or prevent the murdered body of Thea Zaudy aged 94 being brazenly dragged along in an obviously heavy suitcase by her Polish cleaner, Jolanta Kalinowsica and accomplices in July 2007.

Robert Darke ● 6565d

I'm still having no problem dropping off on the private frontage of EB station. What is all this fuss about?White zig zags define a safety zone to give unrestricted visibility of pedestrian crossing areas - an excellent place for a traffic camera!!

John Perkins ● 6563d

Regarding crossing, particularly zebra crossings, it occurred to me that the zig-zag markings only really work when traffic is light.Consider the situation where one is progressing along a two-way road towards a zebra crossing, and there are no vehicles ahead. Because of the zig-zags no parked cars are there. However, if there is stationary traffic in the other direction then, except for the zebra crossing itself, there is no visibility to the right thus rendering the zig-zags useless.There are possible solutions to improving visibility:1) Make the exit area from a zebra crossing a yellow box area2) Make the zebra crossing diagonal (bottom left to top right) as one drives toward it.

Alan Brainsby ● 6563d

Anyone know what's happening to the kerbside area next to the Shanakee Irish Pub as they've just removed the double yellow lines and replaced it with a 2-3 car white boxed area ? I didn't see any new roadside signs and just worried that this is a new traffic/parking scheme which changes the ability to drop off and pickup there to just those able to park in the white box ?

Niall Connolly ● 6562d

Has the camera there ever been used to successfully prosecute anybody for anything other than a parking offence?

Paul Cavanagh ● 6558d

When a couple of people I know were attacked by a pack of Youths in a CCTV covered area, the Police said to them that the Council's CCTV operators will not deal with crime. They are only interested in the safety of the money making machine. The reply from Councillors (current) on this matter was sympathetic but basically not interested in Public Safety. Essentially the Thugs know that CCTV is everywhere but very little is interested in what they are doing, unless of course they are illegally parking whilst doing their stuff.

Peter Chadburn ● 6558d

What about the fanfare statement from Stacy, at the beginning of his tenure, about the extra CCTV cameras being introduced to cut crime. Has crime fallen as a result of crime detection with the help of CCTV or is it just the physiological deterrent of having the cameras there?First sentence from the council CCTV web-page."CCTVThe crime prevention and public safety CCTV system is owned and operated by the council, in partnership with the Metropolitan Police."

Peter Wright ● 6558d

This was discussed on the Chiswick website. Hounslow Council introduced cctv saying it was for crime prevention, but it has actually been used more to aid parking ticketing. One Council employee now says the cameras don't produce good enough photographs to catch criminals, but may still be a detterent. The point I made at the time was that as soon as the criminals get wind of the fact that they can't be identified, there would no longer be a deterrent, but no reply came back. Still being used to issue parking fines though! Let's face it all Councils are as bad as each other on these issues.

Maggie Dodge ● 6557d

There is some disinformation going on here. Community safety cameras are only used for community safety in partnership with the police. They cannot be used for parking enforcement. There are separate parking enforcement cameras that can be commandeered by the community safety people. The council is not perfect but reading some of these comments you might think that the council is actively malign.

Phil Taylor ● 6557d

"The council is not perfect but reading some of these comments you might think that the council is actively malign."Yes!!!, when it comes to parking.

Peter Wright ● 6557d

"Community safety cameras are only used for community safety in partnership with the police. They cannot be used for parking enforcement." There was definitely a thread on the W4 forum a while ago which said that the cameras by Turnham Green Tube and other areas around the High Road, which were installed as a crime prevention measure. However they were used to issue a huge number of parking tickets to unsuspecting soles who stopped for less than a minute in some cases to drop people at the station.

Maggie Dodge ● 6557d

Turnham Green is in Hounslow. In Ealing community safety cameras are used for public safety only.

Phil Taylor ● 6557d

I had no idea these things changed borough to borough. Ealing parking department are as money grabbing as the rest, are we sure about this?

Maggie Dodge ● 6557d

Not sure what exactly is the disinformation you refer to. My original question was whether or not the cameras in front of Ealing Broadway station had ever been used to provide evidence in a criminal prosecution. The suggestion from some is that the operators are not co-operating with the Police in this purpose. This would be easily countered with some examples of how these strategically sited cameras have been useful in solving more serious crimes than dropping someone off outside a train station.

Paul Cavanagh ● 6553d