Forum Topic

Junction Box Debacle

The Council have finally bowed to sustained pressure and admitted that six of the junction boxes in the borough are in fact illegal. This will be of little comfort to the thousands of people who have been fined as a result of this error.The Council seem to be trying to blame the Government as if they were some sort of Oliver Twist to their Fagin but the fact is they fought tooth and nail to keep these boxes even when the adjudicator consistently ruled they were illegal. It was only the financial muscle of the bus companies that allowed an effective challenge to this to take place. Next time the Council will probably waive bus company fines so it is the ordinary motorist who will bear the brunt. It is a measure of how dependent the Council have become on revenue from scams like this that they refused to give it up for so long.As for the residents who have had their money taken from them by an illegal scheme the Council say they are not going to give refunds. 'You're not getting your money back' looks set to be the new Council motto.

Paul Cavanagh ● 6537d14 Comments

Both Labour and the Tories have been too reliant on their officers who have their own agenda. This is pure greed and an assault on the Coucil Tax Payers. The councillors have to take responsability to put right these wrongs. To allow it to continue for so long is a money grabbing cop-out. What would Ealing Trading Standards think about such a scheme???? The money has been taken under false pretences. Perhaps a Lawyer could get people to submit evidence to get data on all the victims of this Scam and do a class action!!Funny how the Councillors will blame the Govt for something that they had total control over themselves. If there was any doubt then get stuck into it and establish the facts and suspend robbing people until you know it is legal. I support Box Junctions when correctly designed as otherwise Traffic can come to a halt. But the amount of money ripped over locals would indicate that they are a trap in which people can easily fall into.

Peter Chadburn ● 6537d

I still don't understand how a Council can levy an illegal charge and then not be obliged to pay it back.

Andy Jones ● 6534d

Nowhere near enough people are fined for blocking junctions! Half the traffic problems in my road are caused because morons are blocking the junction with the North Circular. Never mind 'illegal' box junctions -- it should be the default that junctions may not be blocked.

Susan Kelly ● 6534d

Yes Susan, all junctions should be treated as box junction.I notice on the front page of the Ealing Times newspaper that a local councillor saying that the removal of these box junctions is a victory for local residents.I pose the questions:Was it only local residents who were caught and fined?If non-local residents were also caught and fined then I pose:What is the individual talking about?Also doesn't the fine, if it's ever paid, go to the council's treasury so that we all benefit?

Alan Brainsby ● 6534d

I don't think anyone would dispute that junction boxes should be policed and that drivers who block them up should be fined but in this case the desire of the Council for extra revenue is compromising the effectiveness of the boxes.If a box is too long then it significantly reduces the capacity of each phase on a signal. The longer the box the more need for a driver to wait before entering because it is more difficult to judge whether you will be able to exit the other side.

Paul Cavanagh ● 6533d

Agreed, Box Junction are great when they prevent blocking of junctions. but when they are a scamming trap then that is not so good.

Peter Chadburn ● 6533d

Paul, your statement is true that the longer the box the greater the time drivers require to judge the whether to cross.This raises at least two points.1) Why is there a traffic blockage beyond the box, ie why can't the traffic move forwards?2) Is it better to hold the traffic at the entry to the box rather than block it? Additionally I would beg the questions of why these junctions were laid out apparently incorrectly.Was it due to the incompetence, or misinterpretation of the rules, by LBE staff? Or that the rules themselves, like so much from central government, are so loose that misinterpretation or misuse is easily achieved?On a side note why is it many drivers turning right do not enter a box when the exit is clear but their path is obstructed by oncoming traffic? The rule for that is perfectly clear.

Alan Brainsby ● 6533d

'Was it due to the incompetence, or misinterpretation of the rules, by LBE staff? Or that the rules themselves, like so much from central government, are so loose that misinterpretation or misuse is easily achieved?'On this point the appeals adjudicator had ruled that the boxes were illegal. Rather than accepting this the Council appealed to the Department of Transport. They say it took eight months to get full confirmation that the boxes were illegal. Whilst the Ministry could have been a bit quicker the original decision should have been accepted.

Andy Jones ● 6531d

Wouldn't you blame someone else for the delays when you can make so much money out of it. Roll on the enterprising Lawyer and the Class action. However doesn't this story underline that Councillors (both Lab and Con) have been not rigorous enough in checking the cock-ups of LBE Staff out. Why do we have Councillors? when this sort of thing happens.

Peter Chadburn ● 6531d

This point is also pertinent to the Drayton Manor School case. The current administration seems to have become so officer-led that it is failing to meet its manifesto commitments two of which I would assume were greater fairness in traffic enforcement and the encouragement of quality in local schools. This seems to me profoundly undemocratic.

Andy Jones ● 6524d

The Ealing Times did a FoI request for how much money was raised from these junction boxes in the 8 months after the adjudicator ruled them to be illegal. The total was £3.1mn.

Andy Jones ● 6520d

According to the Gazette today a Freedom of Information request has shown that Ealing were originally informed by the DfT that the boxes were illegal on June 20th. They continued fining people until October. They have now admitted they are at fault and will be giving refunds. It will be interesting to see whether or not they simply give people their money back or make them apply for a refund.

Andy Jones ● 6515d

Interesting to see how the politicians have responded to this debacle. As was the case with the Acton housing benefits scandal, they are putting the blame on junior officers rather than taking any responsibility themselves. Begs the question as to who runs the council - officers or elected politicians? Looking forward to the in-house propaganda sheet Around Ealing spinning this one.

Raymond Bradbury ● 6515d

It is clearly the sort of situation which any Trading Standards Office would deem to be illegal. The fact that Council Tax Payers will take a hit from all this is the responsability of the Officers and the Councillors in Charge. Sometimes living in Ealing makes you feel that you are under constant attack. It is not the pleasant garden suburb any more. So when we have Councill Officers on over £100K administering this makes it more appalling. It would be interesting to know how many Bendy Buses have been prosecuted for yellow box offences??? The Box Junction are important but out of fairness they must be installed correctly. Who designed the offending boxes. Was it Council Staff or expensive consultants?

Peter Chadburn ● 6515d