Forum Topic

Is it a sin to be a Christian now?

Is it anti-establishment to be a Christian nowadays? I was just wondering when one reads stories such as:1. The Brirish Airways worker sacked for wearing a cross on a chain whilst people of other faiths were allowed to wear bracelets, headscarfs and so on as part of their religion.2. The nurse who was dismissed for offering to pray for a patient, she was only reinstated after her bosses reconsidered because of all the fuss.3. The foster mother who has been struck off the register, (despite the fact that she has fostered over 80 children in the past) just because a young lady who was a Muslim was baptised as a Christian. This young lady had apparently been interested in Christianity before she was living with this foster mother - even so, the Social Workers decided that this lady should be struck off the register for her "crime".  Can you imagine if it was the other way around and this young lady was a Christian wanting to become a Muslim??? What do you think would have happened....I can answer that one....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!4. At school years ago we always had Morning Assembly with a prayer to start the day. Now it would appear they are just trying to please everyone. Can anyone be hurt by a prayer?Even Prince Charles calls himself "Defender of Faiths" - well "you can't serve two masters" as the old saying goes. Nowadays it seems those in authority are so busy pandering to the wishes of the minority that they appear to forget that this is supposed to be a Christian contry.Why can't they just live and let live because they way things are going it will surely make this a more divided society?What do others think?

Jean F Fernandez ● 6440d52 Comments

JeanI will await for permission to be granted, from the self appointed censors/moderators of the forum, to give a response. So Clark, Crocker, and not forgetting the inimitable Tony Wood.........is it OK to do so? I suspect that you three wise, intellectually superior beings, will as usual revert to type and offer the usual insults, but will avoid giving an answer.......!!!!

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6440d

Hmmm inimitable eh? I rather like that...thankyou.I'm only speaking for myself here,but go ahead and answer,nice of you to ask.

Tony Wood ● 6440d

The folllowing was writtten by an english qualified barrister who became a senior judge."Respect for all religions and their holy places is a glorious feature of the Sikh faith.The universal character of the Guru Granth Sahib, the holy scripture of the Sikhs, deserves mention. It is the only religious scripture in the world which accords divinity to compilations of peoples of different faiths. It is also not well-known that Sikhism does not believe in the exclusiveness of its path. In fact Guru Nanak, the first Sikh Guru, positively recommends cooperation with all God-oriented persons in ventures aimed at spiritual progress of humanity. As such, proselytization and coercive conversions are unknown and alien to Sikhism."I cannot vouch for its claim to be the only scripture with the same message, but it seems quite a good starting point if you are clear about what happened before Big Bang.

George Knox ● 6440d

Its a metaphysical question - surely?Sin is a christian concept. Its different from understanding what is right or wrong as it enshrines the concept of 'wrong' in the definition of wrong within the eyes & framework of the faith.So to sin or have sin is implicit in the concept of christianity. So yes, the two are necessarily linked. And have always been so. That means you're stuffed. Bad luck.

Alan Clark ● 6440d

If you really want my opinion on these subjects I'll give you my honest thoughts.Question 1.   Completely wrong,anyone who has a faith should be allowed to use symbols of that faith,that's "anyone" though.Question 2.  A bit undecided here,why did she need to ask,why couldn't she just have had a quiet word with her God?  Was she trying to make an overt point (new recruit)? If so then I guess her (the patient) family were at liberty to complain. I would too!Question 3.  You seemed to have answered that yourself,personally I don't know the actual facts.Question 4.  Years ago we weren't a multicultural society,I was at school years ago,Catholics were allowed to miss assembly,I can't see any reason why that can't be allowed for other faiths.  Personally as a non Christian I object a bit to being told that I'm wrong not to have the only "True" faith,so I do understand others getting a bit uppety about it.Your statement 1  I'm not at all sure that this is supposed to be a Christian country,it might be if that's what everyone wants,it was Celtic and Druid earlier though. It's probably only Christians who think it should be,that's their perogative.  As for Prince Charles I'm afraid I'm not a Monarchist so have no problem with him being Defender of whoever he chooses.Not me though Ta!  We can all live and let live,the vast majority of us do,of course there are people out there with extreme views,they are best ignored.  Extra bit,and some of you will like this,suprised no one else has locked on to it.How on Earth is the Association of Black Police Officers allowed to exist? Surely this can only cause problems totally beats me,I can imagine the furore that would have occured should the Association of White Police Officers had formed earlier.That was just me trying to be a bit balanced, back to being a dedicated Luvvie now! 

Tony Wood ● 6440d

"That means you're stuffed. Bad luck."How immature for an intellectual

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6440d

It was meant as a laugh. Sorry if it offended.

Alan Clark ● 6440d

As a person of faith I have to believe in the Truth of my faith. However my faith tells me to be tolerant of others. The trouble for Christianity in this Country is the White Middle Class Guilt which can not seperate the ill deeds of our former rulers from the Faith that they supposedly did their deeds in the name of. Seeing Fiona Bruce looking into her family background showed the Poverty that existed for many of our families over a 100 years ago. The British middle classes of today are made up of people who 200 years ago or so were little more than Slaves in this Country. The ill deeds were performed for the benefit of a tiny minority. So the Crusades were all about Power. The Church's break from Rome was all about Power. So as a Christian I believe that allthough i live within a Contradiction whilst recognising others have a right to a different view. I also believe that Jesus would also be tolerant in that way. (Mohammed's teachings ask people to treat Christians and Jews with respect after the Christians and Jews of Ethiopia protected his family) So seperate History of Power in the name of religion from Religion and we would all be better off.

Peter Chadburn ● 6440d

I was appalled at the nurse suspended for offering to pray for someone - as she said, it was just her way of wishing someone better.I am happy for anyone of any faith to pray for me at any time. How can it hurt?And I have prayed - or at least had mentioned in communal prayers - a non-believing Jew, a  Christian and an atheist in the last year.Though I have to say, with my record (God 0, Death 3) me NOT praying for you is probably a better choice.

Sara Nathan ● 6439d

As a confirmed agnostic I'm comfortable with anyone's belief/ faith/way of life system as long as it's not self harming or knowingly harming to other people.It's also good, I think, from time to time to ask yourself questions about who you are, what you are and how you fit into the general scheme of things.I'd also like it if people didn't come 'knocking on my door' trying to ram their belief/faith/way of life system down my throat. However, to be fair, I do my share of bludgeoning others with my 'view of the world'.

Eric Alan Leach ● 6439d

Some would call me a fundamentalist Bible basher. it's all water off this duck's back. We live in a de jure constitutionally Christian country. De facto we are a secular state. Our liberties come from our Christian Reformation heritage and a bloody civil war, not the Enlightenment which gave us the French Revolution. Starting with Cromwell welcoming back the Jews, we have been home to other people of faith and grown in religious liberty. Then Christians were confident about their faith, confident enough to fight one another over it. Now most people influenced by a postmodernism they could not formulate, have succumbed to multiculturalism which sees truth in all religions and none. The multiculturalist establishment has this way failed to spot the threat that a minority of the followers of the religion of jihad could be to our society. They are ashamed of our Christian heritage for they have no personal commitment to it, except when like the fundamentalist atheist Dawkins, they show their inconsistency by say, liking Christmas carols. It is the multiculturalist who are so PC they take vicarious offence on behalf of minorities who show more appreciation of our heritage than the PC do.

Graham Weeks ● 6439d

I'm interested Graham..when you say you're a bible basher, how do you mean it? Your post was very thought provoking and made me examine my own beliefs which seem to be slap bang with your assessments ! Even down to singing carols. One thing I would question though is I don't worry about offending anyone particularly. If people are secure in their beliefs, surely it doesn't bother them?

Penny Crocker ● 6438d

Some valid points Graham...but.  I don't really subscribe to the idea that there are dedicated "Multiculturists",I think that is a term dreamt up as a convenience to "Monoculturists" (just as invalid) to provide once again a label for people who think differently from "us".   If the mono's had existed BC then Christianity would have had a much harder time getting accepted in the UK.  I suggest that the people termed Multiculturists are nothing more than,folk that treat others as equals,everyone starts off with a blank sheet of paper,no prejudices. I thought that was fundamental to the Christian way of life,as well as all of the other religions in the World.  Of course in history there have been some really unpleasant people who claimed to have this or that religion,Hitler I believe claimed to be a Christian,but nobody would hold him up as a good example,except a person who needed a convenient example to prove how evil Christians are.  There has been a lot of that going on this Forum lately.The dinner lady calls.

Tony Wood ● 6438d

Tony,I know we have all seen some confused posts on here, but yours really does take the biscuit.'The dinner lady calls'....is this a coded message or perhaps an anagram?

Eric Alan Leach ● 6437d

:o) No Eric,my boss bellowed up the stairs that dinner was getting cold. Hope the rest wasn't too confusing,it was written with that scenario imminent. Can decode if needed.

Tony Wood ● 6437d

Looking at the topic again - and not being rushed by meal temperature imperatives - the question 'When did you stop beating your wife' comes unerringly to mind.

Eric Alan Leach ● 6437d

Stop beating her?   30+ years and never had an arguement, I suspect that I "may" raise her blood pressure a point or forty with some of my antics occasionally,but no fisticuffs in these here parts thankyou. Talk things through you see. :o)

Tony Wood ● 6437d

Argument!

Tony Wood ● 6437d

Re  What do others think?       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    that those who choose to come here and be among us must fit it with us and " our's " not we with them and their's. Be free to  worship your religion by all means but bear in mind this is a Christian country built on Christian and European culture, history and principles with which you are expected to abide. If you can't then this country ain't for you.

Tony Price ● 6435d

Since 1497ish the Brits have 'invaded' a number of indigenous populations including those in The Americas, Africa, India, Hong Kong and Iraq.Were we Brits that caring about these indigenous peoples' 'culture, histories and cultures' as we slaughtered them and imposed our will, religion and culture on them?Or does what happened yesterday have no bearing on what we do today or what we might do tomorrow?

Eric Alan Leach ● 6435d

Eric, my point earlier was that you , me and many others are in general the great, great grandchildren of the very poor of this country and whilst we have benefited from the wealth in many ways to associate christianity with the deeds done in it's name is wrong. to associate atheism with Stalin's purges is also wrong. People who abuse Power want a simple excuse and a scapegoat. So the Christian vs. Muslim is a convenient one used by nutters of both colours. Britain has much to answer for but in general the British people do not. History must be remembered to learn lessons i.e. currently economists have forgotten about the 20's. But the British people have been decent in general. And Bristich now includes many whoe families are from the places we invaded. Thought Paxman on the Victorians was interesting last night. Poverty

Peter Chadburn ● 6435d

Topic: Re:Re:Re:Is it a sin to be a Christian now?   Message: Re  Were we Brits that caring about these indigenous peoples' 'culture, histories and cultures' as we slaughtered them and imposed our will, religion and culture on them?        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    As did most other countries , European or otherwise. You have answered your question with your following paragraph but the fact is what happened in centuries gone by would not be acceptable now, except in and by certain peoples, and here I am referring to slavery, which is still practiced in certain North African and Sub- Saharan countries.    And in any event, what you refer to was not done by us, so we hold no responsibilty.

Tony Price ● 6435d

And Iraq Tony?

Eric Alan Leach ● 6435d

Re  And Iraq Tony?        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I was hoping you would ask that. A deliverance, a rescue operation, not an invasion.

Tony Price ● 6435d

'.when you say you're a bible basher, how do you mean it?'I am part of the leadership of a church which teaches that the Bible is the word of God and our final authority in faith and life.

Graham Weeks ● 6435d

Re  And Iraq Tony?Would you prefer to have Sadam Hussein and his sadistic son back in charge. The Campaign Against the Marsh Arabs: Hussein did not limit his genocide to identifiably Kurdish groups; he also targeted the predominantly Shiite Marsh Arabs of southeastern Iraq, the direct descendants of the ancient Mesopotamians. By destroying more than 95% of the region's marshes, he effectively depleted its food supply and destroyed the entire millennia-old culture, reducing the number of Marsh Arabs from 250,000 to approximately 30,000. It is unknown how much of this population drop can be attributed to direct starvation and how much to migration, but the human cost was unquestionably high.

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6435d

'I suggest that the people termed Multiculturists are nothing more than,folk that treat others as equals,everyone starts off with a blank sheet of paper,no prejudices. I thought that was fundamental to the Christian way of life,as well as all of the other religions in the World.'I beg to differ. Multiculturalism is a manifestation of postmodernism. There is no truth only various stories. We all sit round the camp fire and appreciate one another's stories. We do not ask if they are true or one superior to the other. We do not judge. As a result these people have no pride in their history or basis for saying their culture is better.

Graham Weeks ● 6435d

'    that those who choose to come here and be among us must fit it with us and " our's " not we with them and their's. Be free to  worship your religion by all means but bear in mind this is a Christian country built on Christian and European culture, history and principles with which you are expected to abide. If you can't then this country ain't for you.''IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. ''This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom''We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!''Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.''We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.''This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.''If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'''Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia'This cAME TO ME FROM A SOUTH AFRICAN. Why I wonder has it not been in the news? Surely it could not be liberal media bias could it? All we get is gollywogs.

Graham Weeks ● 6435d

Re  As a result these people have no pride in their history or basis for saying their culture is better.           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      Their interest in history is one of post colonial guilt, totally unnecessary, but that's the sort they are and IMO, it is not a question of our culture being better ( although most probably is ) but our desire and need to hold on to it and not  made subservient to those of all incomers, in their millions. Now we have Mogadishu Mile in Ealing, so I learn on TV News tonight. No brownie points for correctly guessing why, or where.

Tony Price ● 6435d

Re  All we get is gollywogs.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    ooh er, be careful. Reminds me of the situation in a small village in Wiltshire where a cousin has longsince lived and where the local child minder, a lady in her fifties I think, maybe older, had had the support of the parents and to whom they had entrusted their children for ages until the dear soul received a visit from some jobsworth from the County Council and who berated her as she had no black dolls for black children to play with and who would feel left out as a result. But we have no black children in the village, the good lady said, never have had nor ever likely to. Doesn't matter said Jobsworth, black dolls is what you will get without which you will be seen as racist. The good lady told  Jobsworth where to shove the black dolls and gave up being a child minder in protest. So if that can happen in darkest Wiltshire, be very careful in MULTICULTURAL Ealing !!. Don't say you ain't bin warned, ' cos you ( we ) are well on the way out and incitement like that could well bring the house down.

Tony Price ● 6435d

Well Graham,I'd never considered myself a Post Modernist,I've Googled it and read lots and reached the conclusion that I'm not one.(not bright enough you see).I just thought that personally I'd try and treat everybody as equals (some make that difficult). Unfortunately I've never sat around a camp fire swapping stories,the closest I think I've ever got would have been going to Sunday School as a child. You'll say that the stories we were told from the Bible were true,they may well have been,we'll probably all find out one day. It is true that I don't think any religion is better than any other though,so in your eyes that may make me a Post Modernist,sounds a bit high falutin' to me,but if you need a bag for people like me then so be it.Here are some questions for you.Is God a sectarian,does he allow followers of religions other than Christian into Heaven? Was Jesus a caucasian,did he really look like Robert Powell?You mention the PMs don't judge,who do you judge,and against what basis/datum?Your last line puzzles me no end,what basis is there in fact,that enables you to come to the conclusion that PMs have no pride in their history/culture,they may question some aspects of both in an attempt to get to their own version of the truth. Are you saying that the truth about all events in British history/culture is already known,is gospel and doesn't warrant further investigation?

Tony Wood ● 6434d

Graham, That statement by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd should be adapted by this country. It should be posted in every public building and on the wall of No. 10 Downing Street!IMMIGRANTS, NOT BRITISH, MUST ADAPT.We haven't forced people to come to these shores. Be free to worship your own religion by all means but bear in mind this is a Christian country built on Christian and European culture, history and principles with which you are expected to abide. If you can't then this country ain't for you.This statement should also be read out when British Citizinship is given during the swearing in ceremony. In fact I would suggest you send this to Prime Minister Brown to read (if he has time off from "saving the world") and it should also be a statement used by ANY party when asking for votes at the next General Election because it is high time we started putting this country to rights!

Jean F Fernandez ● 6434d

Since posting this on my blog I have found a problem.I received this 'Funny, I read the same, word for word, only attributed to John Howard, and very similar to a speech given by Theodore Roosevelt in 1907.Why wasn't it in the news? Because it's not true!http://wanderingsalsero.typepad.com/wanderingsalsero/2007/09/i-got-this-from.htmlhttp://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/troosevelt.asp'I replied, Thank you. From what you sent It appears to be adapted from this."I cannot be with you and so all I can do is to wish you Godspeed," it read. "There may be no sagging back in the fight for Americanism merely because the war is over. "There are plenty of persons who have already made the assertion that they believe the American people have a short memory and that they intend to revive all the foreign associations which more directly interfere with the complete Americanization of our people. Our principle in this matter should be absolutely simple. "In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birthplace or origin. But this is predicated upon the man’s becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. "If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American. "We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, and American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding house; and we have room for but one soul [sic] loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people."Theodore Roosevelt letter written shortly before his death in January 1919, just a few months after the armistice that ended the fighting in World War I:

Graham Weeks ● 6434d

Politicians are great copiers of speeches. In a sense the American way of assimilation is good. You want to go there to live the US Way of life so you change. You may still have religion, family and Culture but you become an American. In the UK many people came to be British, but the White Middle Class PC Guilt brigade thought that was unfair. So on the one hand we had lesson's being taught in Bengali in east London which has failed the young people in that area, then from the right we have Tebbit's Cricket test. When in fact Cricket was a factor binding people together. Having played football occasionally for a mainly Pakistani side, I kenw that they were passionate about the problems of the Pakistani Cricket Team, but just as passionate about the England Football Team. So in effect the more helpful answer lies somewhere in between. I see many people who are British but they also have a plus which links them culturally and emotionally to another Country. They are as British as me (55% English, 45% Welsh) and yet they also have a link elsewhere so they enjoy a rich life because of that. The joint experience of growing up here makes you British. We are caught between the dangers of the BNP and white PC brigade. From our own experiences and that of our more recently arrived neighbours we can see what works and what fails. Who feels the pain when England go out of the world cup. Pretty well anyone who is not of Scottish origin!! Obviously when it comes to Olympic jobs the govt want to misslead us. but the danger of missleading the Public is to foster support for the BNP. And the Olympic stadium is being built in the BNP's backyard. As a Christian I believe in  tolerance and trying to understand people. But PC rhetoric could be described also as Fascism in disguise. We must be careful as the PC/BNP brigades are almost mutual recruitment partners. The IRA/UDA had that relationship before.

Peter Chadburn ● 6434d

Re  In the UK many people came to be British, but the White Middle Class PC Guilt brigade thought that was unfair.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx A very good post overall Peter , if I may say so. The PC walleys are a tremendous threat to this country, a fifth column, a treacherous traitorous bunch, and as far as the immigrants themselves are concerned, each be judged on their merits, as it were, but the trouble, as now seen and sensed by the vast majority of the British public, including immigrants themselves is, there are too many and changing not only the face but the insides of our country. Trouble is many don't want to integrate but " take over ". There was an organisation called BLINK, which was a black run one ( Karen Choudrey and Lee Jasper, who's behaviour put an end to it ) and BLINK were campaigning the 3 main political parties to have their Parliamentary Candidature lists for London to consist of all black persons. Not only is that racism to the extreme but almost usurped power. And when we get idiots like Ramsey wanting Sharia law to be introduced, Gawd 'elp us.

Tony Price ● 6434d

Tony, The PC Brigade start out as well meaning but develop into a position of Fascism without realising it. We have to recognise what is definately wrong and unfair and generally we see the demise of Racism. However in many ways it is still there. Let us live and let live. Emjoy all the things we have in common and explore some of our differences. The core is common. In Northern Ireland Religion was used to divide the Working Class and because of that the real issues of disadvantage and Poverty were sidelined. A Muslim Colleague who was brought up here will have plenty in common with me including values, desires, ambitions, experience. However there are a few differences. In reality even within those differences there is common ground. Both Islam and Christianity ask a lot of the same of the followers. We have failed many Immigrants by not getting them up to speed on English quickly enough. English and educational openings will help them become useful contributing members of society. Many people have succeeded despite this. But I would see Multi-Cultural implies a kind of Apartheid. What we should see is a Complementary Cultural where the differences are added to the overall British experience. As Trevor Phillips amongst others look in a different way at our society we need fresh constuctive debate to move in a more mature direction. The sadest part for me in modern London is the waste of young lives to Gangs where the Culture is the imported US LA Gang culture glorified by rappers. Young kids many from decent homes are seduced by the Bling and Power.

Peter Chadburn ● 6433d

Re  Young kids many from decent homes are seduced by the Bling and Power.       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      you obviously are a deep free thinking person and I respect you for that. You make reference to Christianity and Muslims, but Jews also have the same basic religion as Muslims but without the problems, because I think, Jews having lived in other societies for millenia have shed the  old religious dogma and which has influenced them to leave behind the nasty parts that both they and Islamists started off with. My hope is that in time the Muslims will follow the same way, I have several Muslim believers who are as " sane " as you and I, including one of great importance in his own country to whom I sent photos etc of what goes on in Iran in the name of Allah and my friend passed it to the President of his country in the hope such barbaric behaviour would not get a foothold in their country. He is in the UK at the present time and should be coming here one evening for dinner this week, but we shall see. There are great calls on his time and company. The Muslims I know are good folk and respect us a great deal ( but by the time I have finished haranging them maybe not ! )      As for the black youths, again I am sure as individuals many are good souls but they suffer from one drawback peculiar to the black races all over, the absence of a father figure at HOME, 80% apparently, same here as in America, which gives the children a great disadvantage, hence their looking to the streets for a role model. Thus the turn to crimes of all sorts, mainly ones involving violence.

Tony Price ● 6433d

Yes the gang offers the family unit and role models but not of the right kind.

Peter Chadburn ● 6433d

Good posts these from Graham, Peter, Tony - even from Roosevelt!As an agnostic I also beleieve in tolerance and trying to understand people. I also keep coming back to the fact that we are a monoculture in this country with a long, rich history of tolerating different religions, ways of life,  and behaviours, Further, if citizens' behaviour is not self harming or knowingly  damaging to other citizens it should be tolerated.

Eric Alan Leach ● 6433d

Still a monoculture?Walk along Stoke Newington High street, through Southall, down Golders Green Road, along the bottom of Edgware Road, through Whitechapel High Street, down Ridley Road Hackney, through Hanwell High  Street, along Hampton Hill or just sit on a tube from west to east, and please say where this monoculture can be found? Seems nowadays more like a lot of separate monocultures trying to muddle along some of the time side by side and that is where we have reached in history within these shores. For instance the relevance of what I saw and thought in the Tower of London when I left school and what I think now is greatly and irredeemably changed by circumstances beyond my/our control. We are now over populated and so complain of lost domains like many other creatures of nature. I think the common bond is the English language and in retrospect we have been far far too slow in getting everyone to be very proficient in the language. Unemployed parents soon will have to sign on when the eldest child is 10 and not 16 and the school leaving age is about to go up. Immigration laws so slowly also are tightening up the need to speak English and know about English life (although there are not many English people who would pass both tests). I think these changes will have quite a substantial influence on improving the English spoken word. So long as the language is not disestablished, as perhaps our old monoculture and the Church seems to be, then perhaps our children or grand children will see the return of monoculture, albeit changed.Some say last century was about social justice, and this century again is about religion. Once most of us have English as a first language, then perhaps many more of us can focus on the construct of omnipotence – and its barriers to tolerance - and determine why we need religion anyway.

George Knox ● 6433d

Is not English the global first language and really the only language of business? Through computing, social networks, emails, blogs, etc. the principle language of the 21st century will be English. We're lucky its our language.This means any group in the UK not currently fluent in English (american, british, business or whatever) will be working hard to ensure that their next generation is. And we, arguably, will help everyone with a focus on gaining proficiency at English rather than sustaining only their own native tongue or dialect or argot.This is not about getting rid of the variety and colour of multiple cultures - just allowing everyone the basic opportunity of getting on.Anyway - how did we get onto this from an original bleat about Christians feeling hard done by?

Alan Clark ● 6433d

" As for the black youths, again I am sure as individuals many are good souls but they suffer from one drawback peculiar to the black races all over, the absence of a father figure at HOME, 80% apparently, same here as in America, which gives the children a great disadvantage, hence their looking to the streets for a role model. Thus the turn to crimes of all sorts, mainly ones involving violence."The actual figure is 59%,two and a half times that of the white indigenous population. Still way too high,but lets not exagerate.

Tony Wood ● 6433d

Today's news...."Libraries put Bible on top shelf in a sop to Muslims"Librarians are being told to move the Bible to the top shelf to avoid giving offence to followers of Islam.Muslims have complained of finding the Koran on lower shelves,saying it should be put above commonplace things.So officials have responded with guidance, backed by ministers, that all holy books should be treated equally and go on the top shelf together.This means that Christian works which also have immense historical and literary value, would be kept out of the reach and sight of many readers.The guidance was publiched by the Musiems, Libraries and Archives Council, a quango answering to Culture Secretary Andy Burnham.It said Muslims in Leicester had moved copies of the Koranto the top shelves of libraries, in keeping with the belief that the Koran is the all-important word of God. The report said the city's librarians consulted the Federation of Muslim Organisations and were advised that all religious texts should be kept on the top shelf.'This meant that no offence is caused, as the scriptures of all the major faiths are given respect in this way, but none is higher than any other,' the guidance added. Critics said such a move implied religious works should be treated as objects of veneration rather than books to read.Robert Whelan of the Civitas think-tank said: 'Libraries and museums are not places of worship. They should not be run in accordance with particular religious beliefs. This is violating the principles of librarianship and it is part of an insidious trend.'He said the principle that books should be available to everyone was established in Europe in the Middle Ages.'One of the central planks of the Protestant Reformation was that everybody should have access to the Bible,' he added.Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: 'It is disappointing if the policy of libraries is dictated by the practices of one group.It is particularly disappointing if this is done to put the scriptures beyond reach.I hope there will be a rethink. I understand that Muslims revere their own text, but in public libraries there should not be a policy of putting religious texts out of reach.'Inayat Bunglawala, of the Engage think tank, which encourages Muslims to play a greater role in public life, said: 'If Muslims wish to see the Koran placed in a higher shelf, and library rules say it should be there, then that is a welcome and considerate gesture.'But one size does not fit all. If Christians do not want to see the Bible treated in the same way, I do not see why it has to be dealt with the same.Canon Chris Sugden, of the Anglican Mainstream movement, said: 'This does appear to be a reversion to medieval times, when the Bible could be read only by priests in Latin and was not to be defiled by ordinary people reading it.'The principle to be challenged is that there is a certain way in which one must treat all holybooks.'The Bible is readily available, and it would not be difficult to have more than one copy, with some on display within the reach of children.'The guidlines warned against another decision made in Leicester, in which Islamic material had been bought from local suppliers.Libraries then found they had put into stock Islamic books that were condoning violence against non-Muslims, the report said.Culture Minister Barbara Follett said: 'We have to give staff the tools to enable them to make decisions about what materials they can and should stock while, at the same time, promoting learnng, education, and cultural inspiration for all.'Question:  Does one have to be TALL to be a Christian nowadays bearing in mind the Bible will only be sticked on the top shelf? I thought the books stocked on the top shelf were normally pornography!It would seem it is perfectly OK for libraries to stock Islamic books preach violence to non-Muslims.Question:  What would happen should a Bible (and some are quite heavy) fall from the top shelf hitting a passing Muslim?  I joke but in this day and age some people take things to the extreme!  Think of the compensation they could claim!The idiots in these think-tanks shuld have their heads knocked together! What is this going to do to help race relations and religous tolerance I ask you?Too much pandering to minority groups methinks!In one shool a child was in trouble for discussion religion.What is happing to this country?

Jean F Fernandez ● 6433d

Librarians are being told to move the Bible to the top shelf to avoid giving offence to followers of Islam. Now, why should that not surprise anyone?

Andrew Michael John Atkinson ● 6433d

Re  Once most of us have English as a first language,          xxxxxxxxxxxx    the operative word there George is " Once ", for the first time in our history we are faced with the situation where in many parts of the country, not least the capital ( which poses in itself a very interesting question ) the majority of young children in our schools do not have English as their first language, and most certainly their parents do not. And why is this, mass / over immigration. In Ealing's schools, Europeans are outnumbered 3 to 1 in average, and in some school classes 40 to 1. The future for us looks bleak. Your first para is so true, yet there are those patently anti indigenous anti white european who seem to think what you say  and observed is an advancement, never say why but trot out their sick message nonetheless.

Tony Price ● 6433d

Re The actual figure is 59%,two and a half times that of the white indigenous population. Still way too high,but lets not exagerate.       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    well I did read some time ago the level was 80%, so it is coming down, good sign and hopefully therefore we will see an improvement in matters prevalent in that community. Less work for Trident in the offing?.

Tony Price ● 6433d

Re The actual figure is 59%,two and a half times that of the white indigenous population. Still way too high,but lets not exagerate.       xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    well I did read some time ago the level was 80%, so it is coming down, good sign and therefore we will see an improvement in matters prevalent in that community. Less work for Trident in the offing?.

Tony Price ● 6433d

Re  Culture Minister Barbara Follett said: 'We have to give staff the tools to enable them to make decisions about what materials they can and should stock while, at the same time, promoting learnng, education, and cultural inspiration for all.'        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      another interesting post Jean, thank you. Relating to the extract above, what happens when the staff are no longer " of this country / culture " . Such is the trend, applauded by some on this Forum and who may well rue the day of their back-stabbing, but one has only to look at the staffing in Local Authority Offices to see the way things are going, so imagine what the reaction would be if libraries become staffed by non Christians or persons of different culture when faced with the matter of what books to stock and where to place them. And don't let anyone say it won't happen, because it already has. One public library in the Home Counties stopped local churches from putting up posters re Xmas carol services, as had been the practice since time immemorial, but subsequently allowed posters re Islamic and Hindu festivals. Buckinghamshire I think it was.

Tony Price ● 6433d

Something of light fun re Christianity , which was sent to me today by an ardent Churchman , the like of which could never be by an ardent Islamist !      " A child was asked to write a book report on the entire> Bible.>> I wonder how often we take for g ranted that children> understand what we are teaching???>> Through the eyes of a child:>> The Bible , in a nutshell, as seen in the eyes of a child .>> 20> In the beginning, which occurred near the start, there was> nothing but God, darkness, and some gas.  The Bible says,> 'The Lord thy God is one, but I think He must be a lot> older than that.> Anyway, God said, 'Give me a light!' and someone> did.> Then God made the world.> He split the  Adam and made Eve.  Adam and Eve were naked,> but they weren't embarrassed because mirrors hadn't> been invented yet.> Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating one bad apple, so they> were driven from the Garden of Eden.> Not sure what they were driven in though, because they> didn't have cars.> Adam and Eve had a son, Cain, who hated his brother as long> as he was Abel.> Pretty soon all of the early people died off, except for> Methuselah, who lived to be like a million or something.> One of the next important people was Noah, who was a good> guy, but one of his kids was kind of a Ham.  Noah built a> large boat and put his family and some animals on it. He> asked some other people to join him, but they said they> would have to take a rain check.>  After Noah came Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Jacob was more> famous than his brother, Esau, because Esau sold Jacob his> birthmark in exchange for some pot roast.  Jacob had a son> named Joseph who wore a really loud sports coat.> Another important Bible guy is Moses, whose real name was> Charlton Heston.  Moses led the Israel Lights out of  Egypt> and away from the evil Pharaoh after God sent ten plagues on> Pharaoh's people.  These p lagues included frogs, mice,> lice, bowels, and no cable.>>  God fed the Israel Lights every day with manicotti.  Then> he gave them His Top Ten Commandments.> These include: don't lie, cheat, smoke, dance, or covet> your neighbor's stuff.>  Oh, yeah, I just thought of one more: Humor thy father and> thy mother.> One of Moses' best helpers was Joshua who was the first> Bible guy to use spies.  Joshua fought the battle of Geritol> and the fence fell over on the town.> After Joshua came David.  He got to be king by killing a> giant with a slingshot.  He had a son named Solomon who had> about 300 wives  and 500 porcupines.  My teacher says he> was wise, but that doesn't sound very wise to me.> After Solomon there were a bunch of major league prophets.> One of these was Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale> and then barfed up on the shore.  There were also some minor> league prophets, but I guess we don't have to worry> about them.> After the Old Testament came the New Testament.  Jesus is> the star of The New.  He was born  in  Bethlehem  in a barn.>  (I wish I had been born in a barn too, because my mom is> always saying to me, 'Close the door! Were you born in a> barn?' It would be nice to say, 'As a matter of> fact, I was.')>> During His life, Jesus had many arguments with sinners like> the Pharisees and the Democrats.> Jesus also had twelve opossums.>> The worst one was Judas Asparagus.  Judas was so evil that> they named a terrible vegetable after him.> Jesus was a great man.  He healed many leopards and even> preached to some Germans on the Mount.> But the Democrats and all those guys put Jesus on trial> before Pontius the Pilot.  Pilot didn't stick up for> Jesus.  He just washed his hands instead.>> Anyways, Jesus died for our sins, then came back to life> again.> He went up to Heaven but will be back at the end of the> Aluminum.  His return is foretold in the book of Revolution.>> share this delightful story!

Tony Price ● 6432d

Patronising as ever.

George Knox ● 6432d

... that England (and Wales) has only been Christian for 450 years.I wonder if that will be celebrated?

Alan Brainsby ● 6428d

I found it funny

Graham Weeks ● 6428d