Forum Topic

Major Trauma & Stroke services in London (Consultation Event)

There will be a specially arrange consultation event this Friday on the forcoming changes to healthcare provision in London. This event is focussing on Major Trauma and Stroke services.There will be an open public event coming up, but anyone from any local interested community and voluntary groups (including resident associations) are welcome!Its FREE, but booking required for planning and access needs.Please contact jim@ealingcvs.org.uk or tel: 020-8280-2233

Jim Wong ● 6414d44 Comments

Many thanks Jim, Is there a location for this? This is of concern as you will end up in a queue going to a more distant hospital rather than the local one. So A&E in Ealing would be downgraded.Will the Ambulance service get more drivers and vehicles?

Peter Chadburn ● 6414d

Would you like to attend?The venue is near ealing Broadway and I will forward you the details once you confirm your attendance and representation (group/organisation).At the event you will be given information as well as being able to feedback to Healthcare for London Team.

Jim Wong ● 6414d

One of the option for Major Trauma services is to have only 3 hospital running the service in London. the nearest hospital would be St. George's in Tooting.What does everyone think?

Jim Wong ● 6413d

Unbelievable !!!! So if you're dying, you go to Tooting? If you're not so seriously hury/ill, you can pootle along to Ealing/West Mid? Do I understand you correctly? Or would there be more air ambulances to compensate?

Penny Crocker ● 6413d

I think it would be nice if people who think St.Georges would be good for Ealing,should first spend a few evenings in the Truama Department at Ealing Hospital,and then be taken to St.Georges at 5pm whilst imagining they had been crushed in an accident.   It might concentrate their minds!

Tony Wood ● 6413d

JimThank you for using a local group for telling us about this.This is to register my opposition to such a small number of units serving London.

George Knox ● 6413d

Penny,There are 2 more options with at one more hospital proving MT&S service and the best one would be with St. mary's Paddington as well as the other 3 (St. groege's, King's Collge & Royal London).Yes, as I understand it LAS would get extra funding & resouces to enable them to achive their target of no more than 40 minutes to each of the MJ&T service hospital.But these are only options being tabled, unless someone being able to "voice" their concerns and views at the consultation meeting the worst option may get the approval.Hence my alert to local community and voluntary groups for representations at this meeting on Friday.Sorry I can't do this for you.

Jim Wong ● 6413d

St George's can be a good 45 minutes or more away from us - in Acton at the east end of the borough - when traffic is heavy or it's the rush hour. I've driven it quite a lot recently and it really is a long way away - and goodness knows how far from Southall or Hanwell.Adding St Mary's would help considerably but is scarcely just round the corner and can be even more congested en route.Can't go to the meeting though.

Sara Nathan ● 6413d

Jim,Will you posting this on the other neighbouring sites? Acton/Brentford etc.

Penny Crocker ● 6413d

He has on Acton....no debate though....maybe the first post didn't explain what it was about enough to stir people up.

Sara Nathan ● 6413d

There is a simple answer to this in that people will die. Also without an enhanced Ambulance and Air Ambulance more people will die. But the American Healthcare Companies and Consultants so beloved by Labour will be allright. Having travelled to St Georges a few times we are talking about a journey around some of the most congested roads. No matter how many people get out of the way. on those roads Ambulances will get held up especially at peak times.

Peter Chadburn ● 6413d

They've invested millions in West Mid, they should invest a bigt more and put a Major Trauma unit there

Penny Crocker ● 6413d

It's important to emphasise that the proposed networks will offer services that currently exist only in hospitals such as the Royal London in East London. This is where the Cardinal Wiseman pupil was flown by air ambulance after he was stabbed. Local hospitals do not provide these services and would never be able to do so, because they do not see enough cases to become experts in this sort of care.Examples of major trauma are: a limb amputation; severe gunshot or knife wounds; a spinal injury; open skull fracture; paralysis; or multiple injuries e.g. a road traffic accident.Examples of trauma are: fractured hip; broken ankle; or minor head injury. People with these less serious injuries would continue be treated in trauma centres at accident and emergency (A&E) departments. The proposals would ensure faster access to specialist care – all Londoners would be within 45 minutes’ ambulance journey of a major trauma centre.You can make your views known by:visiting www.healthcareforlondon.nhs.ukcompleting a questionnairewriting to:Freepost RSAE-RCET-ATJYHealthcare for LondonHarrowHA1 2QGcalling freephone: 0808 238 5481faxing: 0808 238 5480emailing: hfl@ipsos.comYour comments will go directly to the independent assessors of the consultation, Ipsos MORI.You can also request information in alternative formats including other languages, Braille, audio and easy-read, by calling the Freephone number above. All questionnaires and comments must be received by 8 May 2009.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6412d

Sorry, I should also have added that NHS Ealing is holding a health fair at Ealing Town Hall on 15 April. Please drop in any time between 11am and 4.30pm to tell them your views in person, or fill in a questionnaire. You will also get the chance to have your blood pressure and cholesterol readings taken.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6412d

Thank you Fiona for the information. Using the websites is a most welcome development.You say:The proposals would ensure faster access to specialist care – all Londoners would be within 45 minutes’ ambulance journey of a major trauma centre.Who on earth gave you this information? It is totally wrong and you should take this up with the person who supplied this info.Putting you in the position of saying this does not do much for the reputation of decion makers in the NHS.

George Knox ● 6412d

Hi George. I must admit I was as sceptical as you when i was first told by Healthcare for London that all Londoners would be able to get to a major trauma centre within 45 minutes, but London Ambulance has proved that the journey times are feasible for a wider area than just Greater London. At our event on 15 April we will be showing London Ambulance films that demonstrate how it is possible to get from one side of Greater London to central London within 45 minutes - but only with an ambulance's blue lights flashing. It's much quicker to get across London in an ambulance with its lights flashing than it is as a normal car driver and they have proved it. However, it is clear that some drivers need to be educated to realise that they have to get out of the way as quickly as possible to let the ambulance pass!

Fiona Harcombe ● 6412d

Fiona thank you.I would want to know how many test runs have been done and at what time and where from, including rush hours, and whether they were having their ears bent.Someone has got to be having a laugh here. It is a pity you have been put in this position.I like your remark about educating drivers to get out of the way. Would not help if there was a major incident. As so often happens with planning, the experts know what they are talking about. The locals however know better. If it is possible I hope you will convey these thoughts to the decision maker. Regards

George Knox ● 6412d

Yes, 45 mins to St George's ! I honestly can't imagine which way they travelled..even with the sirens blaring. It's a terrible route (south circular?)Only way would be by air ambulance I think

Penny Crocker ● 6412d

Come to either the event this Friday or the 15th April (public) meeting and see the film and make your coments. If not coplete the questionnaire online. But do make your view "heard" after you have seen/read the evidences (facts)first. But do take part!

Jim Wong ● 6412d

Jim, What happens if theres roadworks on Kew Bridge? Its pushing it having to make it to Hammersmith for Cardiology as it is - wouldn`t it be better to build a specialised facility in Ealing or Hillingdon to cope with the big rise in NuLab population instead of wasting money on half-baked polyclinics?

Robert Darke ● 6411d

Hi George, thanks for your feedback. I have forwarded the link to this discussion forum to NHS London, so they will definitely take your views into consideration. By the way, one of the timed runs in the film was from Hillingdon into central London. Regards.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6411d

Hi Penny. We would expect patients from our borough to go to St Mary's in Paddington eventually. As I replied to George, the experience of driving an ambulance with the blue lights flashing is very different to our experiences of driving cars in London and they really can get to hospitals much quicker than the rest of us could. Regards.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6411d

I would like to second Jim's remark. Please do take part, otherwise how will NHS London know your preferences?

Fiona Harcombe ● 6411d

Hi Robert. Just to emphasise again, we are talking about establishing major trauma centres in areas where they are most needed. Examples of major trauma are: a limb amputation; severe gunshot or knife wounds; a spinal injury; open skull fracture; paralysis; or multiple injuries e.g. a major road traffic accident.Major trauma centres would need to see larger numbers of patients requiring this type of specialist care in order for the surgeons, physicians, nurses and other health professionals to develop the expertise that is needed to save the lives of people who would die without that sort of specialist care.Believe it or not, despite the perception that we have a lot of stabbings, boroughs such as Ealing experience few major traumas of this type. Most of the major traumas happen in central London, and not in boroughs such as Ealing. Therefore, it would not make much sense to build a specialist hospital here and divert patients from central London to a major trauma centre in an area where few major traumas are experienced.I do hope you go onto the Healthcare for London website www.healthcareforlondon.nhs.uk to find out more. Regards.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6411d

Sorry, Robert. I should have added that we would expect local patients to go to St Mary's in Paddington eventually, so would not be using Kew Bridge. To repeat again, the journey down the A40 by ambulance with blue lights flashing is very different to the journey by car. The added advantage for families and friends of patients is that the journey by tube to St Mary's is relatively easy, as the hospital is right next to Paddington Station. Regards.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6411d

Less cyber/vertual postings and more REAL participation Ealing!Come to either the event this Friday or the 15th April (public) meeting and see the film and make your comments. If not complete the questionnaire online. But do make your view "heard" after you have seen/read the evidences (facts)first. But do take part!

Jim Wong ● 6411d

Thanks Jim. Just to clarify, we have not been given the film yet, so won't be able to show it tomorrow, but we will have it for the event on 15 April. I don't want to mislead anyone!

Fiona Harcombe ● 6411d

St Georges Hospital does not have helicopter access

Jean Gilmore ● 6411d

Other than reading it here, have you seen any other publicity about this consultation? I contacted the Healthcare commission yesterday complaining about the lack of publicity.

Jean Gilmore ● 6411d

Fiona, Thanks for your responses on Jim`s cyber-thread. The Tooting Hospital option is alarming, no doubt envisaged by people who don`t live here, but as you suggest the St.Mary`s Paddington would be accessible either from the Uxbridge Road or the A40 Western Avenue. As a limited elite service this may well look better as we learn more but I have to say how disillusioned I was with the consultation on the Daniels/Mattock Lane Clinic where I found Ealing PCT going down the wrong path at practically every turn. (Do you know how much annual rent Daniels will be raking in for not opening a department store in their non-compliance with planning permission)? Indeed can you give an example of any benefit on that particular consultation?Lastly I attended A&E at Ealing Hospital at 2am a few days ago with a minor assault patient and thought it was ticking over well at a good standard.                    

Robert Darke ● 6410d

There was something in last week's gazette and I publised this event via ECVS's database of groups (350+).Also on this forum and the advert about stroke on tv.The public event on 15th April.What else do you need to come out and be consulted?

Jim Wong ● 6410d

Robert, you have many different question over a number of different topics. You must have a lot of time on your hand;-).Why not come down to the event on 15th April and "have your say" that matters rather than being a "virtual comsultor". If that is what you prefered there is the website questionnaire as Fiona pointed out earlier.Thwe choice is yours, it is up to you to contribute to thie consultation or not.

Jim Wong ● 6410d

Not a bad turn out 30 booked and 30 turned up.Not too bad lots of good comments and questions.Shame there wasn't more representatives of the Ealing comunnity and voluntary organisation.Hoped there will be lot more "concerned" citizens turning up for the 15th April event in Ealing Town Hall.

Jim Wong ● 6410d

Jim it is good to see that you publicise these events on this forum. I live in Tooting and am very involved  with Links and before that the P.P.I. forums. I have seen very little publicity about this consultation and can see it going the same way as the Darzi report

Jean Gilmore ● 6410d

Remember Consultation is a tick box exercise which govt/councils undertake before doing what they want anyway. However we must still object and let them know that we know that they are wrong

Peter Chadburn ● 6408d

Robert, apologies for the delay in replying, but I have been out of the office. I will ask my colleague, Marie Pemberton, to reply to your comments about the West London Integrated Care Centre and will pass on your comments about A&E to my counterpart at Ealing Hospital. Regards.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6407d

Just to add to what Jim has said, we have sent out 10,000 compact consultation documents and letters, highlighting our consultation event on 15 April at Ealing Town Hall, to community and voluntary groups, members of the public, Ealing Hospital, West London Mental Health Trust, GP practices, dentists, pharmacists and opticians, as well as to local NHS staff. There have been articles in the Evening Standard and the London Paper, as well as on various websites, and it has been advertised in various newspapers across London. At the start of the consultation, there was also coverage of the consultation on BBC London News. NHS Ealing will also be advertising our consultation event on 15 April at Ealing Town Hall. We would be delighted if you were free to drop in any time between 11am and 4.30pm to give us your views in person. In addition, we are consulting a number of community groups, including Ealing Stroke Club.If you have any ideas about what else you feel we could do, within reason, I would be happy to hear from you. Regards.

Fiona Harcombe ● 6407d

Peter, it would be really helpful if you could fill in a questionnaire to let NHS London know your views. It's important for you to know that these are not government or council proposals. The proposals have been put together by doctors, nurse and therapists who work in London, in conjunction with NHS organisations and hospitals in the capital, and evaluated by eminent health professionals from outside London as well. We are working really hard to ensure people have their say and it certainly does not feel like a tick box exercise to me when I have spent weeks trying to get people engaged and involved. Just for the record, I am a local resident as well as an NHS Ealing employee, so I definitely want the best for my family and me!

Fiona Harcombe ● 6407d

Jill,As all part of my job (as Health & Social Care Partnership Officer - Ealing Community & Voluntary Service). Your local CVS (Wandsworth Voluntary Sector Development Agency - WVSDA) should have a simluar post and that person should be doing the same thing.

Jim Wong ● 6407d

Jean,There is no H&SC PO in Wandsworth, but the local LINk has the simular coverage of work.enquiries@wandsworthlink.org.uk

Jim Wong ● 6407d

I have just read the proposals and done the questionaire. This actually does make a degree of sense to me and the St Mary's option of the 4 centres (preferred by writers) was really for me the only one that had any merit. Obviously we need specialism's. My girlfriend goes to the Brompton for her chest problems. But the key is accessibility. I feel that the big concern will be in Ambulance investment and the fact that the 30 minutes may not happen on our congested roads. Also will these new units be developed using PFI. This is sucking the life blood from the NHS. So my answer is great idea, but the delivery of it under a Labour/Conservative govt could be the stumbling block.

Peter Chadburn ● 6406d

Peter you have made some good valuable points and you might be the first person on this forum to actually completed the questionnaire online.I would be interested to see what investment will be put in to LAS and also to see the film on 15th April @ Ealing Town Hall.

Jim Wong ● 6406d

Jim,it is difficult to read these things sometimes and having been involved in an oxygen campaign with my girlfriend see oxywalk.org we know the NHS moves as a megalith. Since the Oxygen changes which Andy Burnham said would be cost neutral the cost has more than trebled. Though the service is much better for most people, it obviously benefits the companies involved greatly. So with PFI etc... the real NHS budgets at the point of delivery are squeezed to the extreme. We see that Staffs Hospital and other scandals. Corporate Manslaughter should be used there against the decision makers. But I really do sympathise with many in the NHS. It is a political football in which the parties would rather was privatised.

Peter Chadburn ● 6406d

Peter,There is another event this Friday at Ealing Town hall, which is relating to the new complaints procedure with NHS & Social Care (see another posting).It might be useful for you and any one whoc have had problems with the health & socical care services in Ealing.

Jim Wong ● 6405d