Forum Topic

Misleading statement by London Mayor: 'Freedom Pass valid for travel 24hrs a day'

Current report on this site 'Bus and Tube Fares Set to Rise' quotes (accurately or otherwise) the London Mayor as saying 'the Freedom Pass will continue to be valid for travel 24hrs a day on all TfL services'-  NOT SO -  the Freedom pass is NOT valid for travel on any services 04.30-09.00 Mon-Fri, so is only valid 19.5 hours a day on five days of the week. Even taking account of the 24hr validity at weekends, that still averages out at a mere 20.7857142857143 hours a day; or slightly more (but still substantially less than 24 hours) if the 24hr validity on non-weekend public holidays is taken into account.Editor please note and act to correct.

Chris Veasey ● 6192d34 Comments

Chris, the mayor is not wrong. The Freedom Pass can be used 24 hours a day on services DIRECTLY operated by Transport for London - London Buses, Tube, Tram, DLR, Overground. On National rail it can be used from 9.30am to 4.30am

Jamie Smith ● 6192d

Sorry but the the Mayor, and you, ARE wrong  -  see below, ocr scanned directy from the TfL information sheet issued with every Freedom Pass:-Travelling TimesTransport for London Buses, Tube, Docklands Light Railway, Trams and London OvergroundHolders of the Older person's freedom pass can travel free between 9.00am and 4.30am the following morning, Monday to Friday, plus all day at weekends and on public holidays. Holders of the Disabled person's freedom pass can travel free at all times.For details visit www.tfl.gov.uk or call 020 7222 1234Other Local BusesPass holders will be able to travel free between 9.30am and 11.00pm Monday to Friday, all day at weekends and on public holidays. Some bus operators may accept travel at additional times. Please check with the relevant bus company.For information on bus services outside London please contact Travel Line on 0871 200 22 33.National Rail (other than London Overground)Free travel in Standard accommodation on most local rail services between 9.30am and 4.30am the following morning, Monday to Friday, plus all day at weekends and on public holidays.On some routes, holders of the Older person's freedom pass may travel free from 9.00am Monday to Friday and any time at weekends and on public holidays. See map overleaf for details.The freedom pass is NOT valid for travel on train services operated by Arriva CrossCountry, Grand Central, Hull Trains, East Midlands Trains, Gatwick Express, National Express East Coast, Virgin Trains and Heathrow Express, or on Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow.For travel beyond the freedom pass area you must buy a separate extension ticket before you travel. Please show your freedom pass at the ticket office when buying tickets. Holders of Senior and Disabled Persons Railcards may be able to obtain a discount on the price of extension tickets. Call National Rail Enquiries on 08457 48 49 50. For train times and fares or visit www.nationalrail.co.uk

Chris Veasey ● 6192d

From the 2nd January 2009, the hours of the freedom pass were extended to 24 hours per day for TFL services. This was a key election pledge of both Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone. Here is the mayor's press release announcing the extension of the hours: http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_release.jsp?releaseid=20256Here is TFL's press release: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/10905.aspxFurthermore under TFL's ticket pages: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/7323.aspxit clearly states : Bus, Tube, DLR, Tramlink and London Overground services- You can travel free at any time within London.The document to which you refer may have been given at the previous issue (2008) of the freedom pass. The updated version is probably given to new applications.

Jamie Smith ● 6192d

The document was issued with a Freedom Pass in July this year at a post office in this borough. Evidently TfL has not bothered to take steps to withdraw the out of date information from issuing outlets and replace it with the correct current information.That neglect is a matter of serious concern -  the public can not be expected to check for press releases or websites which may supersede apparently current published information provided with their travel passes on issue.

Chris Veasey ● 6192d

This is nuts.If Jamie is right, why isn't this info prominently displayed on bus stops/tube ticket windows/in buses at the point of entry etc, etc.

Eric Alan Leach ● 6192d

"Evidently TfL has not bothered to take steps to withdraw the out of date information from issuing outlets and replace it with the correct current information."Was it a TfL document?  Freedom Passes are funded by the local boroughs, and I thought the documentation was issued by London Councils.  Even if they or TfL have updated the leaflet, it could just be that your local Post Office failed to purge their stocks of the old version.

Richard Jennings ● 6192d

Yes it appears that the leaflet is indeed issued by London Councils; so it appears that while the London Mayor has all the power to decide on conditions of use and eligibility, London Councils have the responsibility to ensure users are provided with correct and up-to-date information; responsibility which they have evidently signally failed to discharge in this instance.The post office concerned is very efficiently run, and I'd be more inclined to trust them than our all-too-often dysfunctional and inefficient local authorities  -  without you or anybody else can come up with a current updated printed version of the leaflet, and proof that the issuing authority(ies) took all possible positive steps to promptly inform all issuing outlets of the change at or before the time it took effect, and to ensure that they had full stocks of the new leaflet and destroyed or returned all stock of the out-of-date ones.

Chris Veasey ● 6192d

"I'd be more inclined to trust them than our all-too-often dysfunctional and inefficient local authorities  -  without you or anybody else can come up with a current updated printed version of the leaflet, and proof that the issuing authority(ies) took all possible positive steps to promptly inform all issuing outlets of the change at or before the time it took effect, and to ensure that they had full stocks of the new leaflet and destroyed or returned all stock of the out-of-date ones."In other words, you've no idea who is at fault, but you prefer to trust your prejudices.:-)Just wait till the New Year, when all Freedom Passes will be renewed starting in January.  New pass design, new technology, photo on the pass, new pass sent out by post ...    You'll have much more scope for criticism!

Richard Jennings ● 6192d

"In other words, you've no idea who is at fault, but you prefer to trust your prejudices."-  whereas you prefer to trust yours, which consistently preach on this thread your doctrine that the authorities can never be in the wrong:-"it could just be that your local Post Office failed to purge their stocks of the old version."-  what evidence do you have for that, or that the authorities did act correctly? All I have to go on is the unfailingly courteous and efficient service I have received on many occasions in that well-run post office; in strong contrast to the very patchy service -  and often offhand and even downright rude and aggressive disservice  -  I have been subjected to over many years by this (in particular) and some other local authorities.

Chris Veasey ● 6192d

Regarding the use of Freedom Passes on buses outside London, I ventured forth to Brighton this week albeit by train (£3 each way: London Victoria - Brighton). To reach my final destination I travelled on Brighton & Hove buses. I was certainly glad I had my Freedom Pass. The buses seemed to be hand-me-downs from East Yorkshire, noisy and well-scuffed. To pay to travel on such decrepit vehicles would have been an insult unless they were on "heritage" services.

Alan Brainsby ● 6192d

If I remember correctly; the form Chris referred to has got a spelling mistake on it.

Alan Brainsby ● 6192d

' The buses seemed to be hand-me-downs from East Yorkshire, noisy and well-scuffed'Why his dissrepect for God's own county?  Yer all furiners south o' Bawtry!

Graham Weeks ● 6192d

Yer all furiners south o' Bawtry!Precisely. My wife, a foreigner, hails from a place just north of Bawtry - Wheatley, and many of her ancestors (after they had been shaken out of the trees) came from the northern banks of the Humber. Hence my association with EYMS buses when visiting her ancestral homeland, and the county record offices therein.BTW I only found out the other day that two new verses had been added to the Humber Bridge song...

Alan Brainsby ● 6191d

A PS.http://www.eyms.co.uk/content/abouteyms/psvsales.aspxis handy if one wants to buy a piece of GOC history.

Alan Brainsby ● 6191d

"it could just be that your local Post Office failed to purge their stocks of the old version."-  what evidence do you have for that, or that the authorities did act correctly?You keep making assumptions that it must be the fault of X, but when it's pointed out that it could possibly be Y, you demand evidence before you'll believe in the possibility.I don't know how it happened, and neither do you.  I guess the fault must lie with the Post Office or London Councils or Ealing or TfL.  I don't have a doctrine that authorities can never be wrong, but I do object when people routinely assume that they must be wrong.

Richard Jennings ● 6191d

'BTW I only found out the other day that two new verses had been added to the Humber Bridge song...'In our early history Julius Caesar crossed the sea To this island off the Northern coast of France. Then some other Romans came to treat us just the same And they stayed a little longer just by chance. They came, they saw, they conquered everything that they could see 'Til they reached the River Humber, that noble estuary. But they burnt their boats behind them not thinking it could be That the ancient Britons hadn't built a bridge.CHORUS Will they ever bridge the Humber? Will they ever span it or Is it always an exception to the rule? Is it such a privilege not to have a Humber Bridge And to have to keep on going round by Goole?In a thousand years or more there arrived on England's shore A noble duke who came from Normandy. Duke William was his name and conqueror he became For he conquered all the land that he could see. But one day he came up North and there to his surprise As he reached the River Humber he was made to realise While Romans could build straighter roads and walls of every size, They never tried to build a Humber Bridge In the English civil war when they fought on Marston Moor And the Royalists were scattered far and wide. They disturbed the peaceful slumber of the quiet River Humber But they knew that Hull was not a place to hide. For the city favoured Cromwell and there they could not stay They headed for the river to cross without delay. But on reaching Hessle foreshore they found to their dismay No one had ever built a Humber Bridge. The year of nineteen sixty six found Harold Wilson in a fix With his overall majority down to two. He just couldn't face rejection at the Hull North bye election Barbara Castle came to see what she could do. There is one thing I can promise, she assured us on that day, You'll get your Humber Bridge and there won't be much delay. But she forgot to mention that a squeeze was on the way And still we're waiting for a Humber Bridge Now they've built across the Severn, they've built across the Tay And they've even spanned the mighty Firth of Forth. But an increase on this number with a bridge across the Humber Appears to be more trouble than it's worth. Gas may flow in from the ocean, oil may spurt out from the sea We could join the Common Market or something else maybe Then in Whitehall and in Westminster perhaps they'll start to see That at last we really need a Humber Bridge.POSTSCRIPT In nineteen eighty one when at last the bridge was done It was opened by Her Majesty the Queen It was suspended by steel / cables spun by spinning wheel The longest that the world had ever seen But it was financed by a debt and so we had to pay At first it was a pound to go across each way each day But now it's two pounds seventy with increases on the way And we can't afford to cross the Humber Bridge.Will they ever pay the loan off? will it ever be free? Is it always an exception to the rule? Is it such a privilege just to drive across a bridge Not to have to keep on going round by Goole?Is there more?

Graham Weeks ● 6191d

I don't 'routinely' assume anything of the sort; while expressing openness to any evidence (which I await from any source) either way my initial view as to the probable cause was deduced from solid experience of the relative general performance history of the two agencies concerned, as explained.Your kneejerk reaction was to blame the post office concerned, not even acknowledging the possibility that the authorities could have been at fault.

Chris Veasey ● 6191d

"The buses seemed to be hand-me-downs from East Yorkshire, noisy and well-scuffed. To pay to travel on such decrepit vehicles would have been an insult unless they were on "heritage" services."-  That, I'm afraid is what, even since the 1980s, most punters in 'deregulated' bus service territory everywhere in this island outside London are fobbed off with  -  mostly discourtesy of the four Pictish and Bernician raving monster predatory plutocrat transport conglomerates who have contrived to carve up most of the market between them.Successive House of Commons Transport Committees have conducted lengthy Inquiries and drawn attention to the baleful effect of this regime, and successive Westmonster governments have refused to take any notice.Ironically East Yorkshire Motor Services is a rare major independent survival; even more ironically thanks largely to its Chairman, a Devonian by origin.

Chris Veasey ● 6191d

"Why his dissrepect for God's own county?  Yer all furiners south o' Bawtry!"- not sure he was dissing Yorks (if that's what you mean by GOC) -  in any case more a province than a county, as successor to the old Anglian kingdom of Deira which joined in an unholy and perpetually unstable alliance with Bernicia to form Northumbria. The real N-S Divide is roughly congruent with the River Welland not the Idle, so the North encompasses (inter alia) the whole Humber basin, of which Yorkshire occupies the northern half. Even the Tudors only pushed the Northern frontier back notionally to the Trent; the industrial revolution and related influences subsequently pushing it firmly back south again.

Chris Veasey ● 6191d

The last verse:THE HUMBER BRIDGE 25th ANNIVERSARYWhat cause we have to celebrate this dayFor twenty-five years now we’ve had to payTo cross this bridge that they have builtBut should not our Government bear the guiltFor we pay tax to fuel and drive our carsSo is not this tax to cross a tax too far.A bridge to nowhere from God's own landWill for the rest of time always standAs a symbol of our Governments greedAnd how they always take no heedOf those who keep them in such splendid stateSo take up your diaries and note well this date.Michael A. Hellyerhttp://www.goole-on-the-web.org.uk/main.php?page=song is the website page.For those in an indulgent mood the song and karaoke versions can be downloaded from it, and for those who can play a musical instrument the sheet music is also there.Enjoy!

Alan Brainsby ● 6191d

"Your kneejerk reaction was to blame the post office concerned, not even acknowledging the possibility that the authorities could have been at fault."Nonsense.  Read what I said again.  I was merely suggesting that there was another possible reason ("it could just be that ...") as an alternative to your own knee-jerk reaction of blaming TfL, in which you used the word "evidently" despite having no evidence for what you claimed.

Richard Jennings ● 6191d

Jamie is right; Chris is wrong; people with Freedom Passes, like my old man, know exactly when and where they can use them, unless they're a bit thick.

Susan Kelly ● 6191d

I'm old and a man and I didn't know the 24 hour validity of the Freedom Pass. So mark me down as a bit thick. I often believe what's printed on official documents ie on Freedom Passes.  Maybe it's just a Northern thing as Chris and I were born well north of Watford.

Eric Alan Leach ● 6191d

Nah! Northeners aren't thick. They've just got shorter memories. Ask my wife, we have often talked about this, unless she's forgotten (born Wheatley, SRSY/PRSY).There was a Forum thread about the passes going 24 hour last year.

Alan Brainsby ● 6191d

I already freely acknowledged Jamie was right once I had confirmed that from his info. So kindly put a sock in it, you rude, arrogant pig-ignorant young woman, and do grow up if at all possible. Without your father (or is he your husband/ partner?  - the colloquial term 'old man' is ambiguous) is gifted with ESP (the absence of which facility is not an indication of 'thickness'), OR he was fortuitously supplied with the correct up-to-date information on conditions of use (or is a TfL press-release nerd), unlike the rest of us, he had no possible reason to 'know exactly' the current 24 hour availability, which runs counter to the longstanding restrictions on AM peak period use  -  hence the traditional colloquialism term 'Twirly Card' which now becomes obsolete.

Chris Veasey ● 6191d

Unfortunately these passes were off my radar last year, and in any case I was doing my level best to stay off this forum.Northerners do indeed have short memories, otherwise they'd be (and have every reason to be) as virulently nationalist as the Scots, Welsh and Irish.

Chris Veasey ● 6191d

"he had no possible reason to 'know exactly' the current 24 hour availability"LOL!  It was a major manifesto commitment by both Livingstone and Johnson, it was announced last autumn and was reported in the Ealing Gazette, Evening Standard, BBC website, BBC local news and probably national media too.I should stop digging in this thread if I were you.:-)

Richard Jennings ● 6191d

Re 'major' mainfesto commitment, I (and I expect many others) had no need to study the manifestos to know to vote for the candidate most likely to unseat Livingstone  -his outrageous behaviour in regard to the crackpot Uxbridge Road tram scheme, and his attitude towards its local opponents (which I heard him express in public) alone made that voting tactic imperative, even if there'd been no other reasons.As regards the news coverage, and other media, you obviously have a lot more time on your hands that I do, or have a very narrow range of interests. Hit-and-miss media coverage is no substitute for proper provision of full, accurate and up to date information to all existing and new Freedom Pass users  -  which the authorities evidently failed to do.And if this purely local (or at most, regional) issue really was reported on 'national' media, why?  -  London is not the nation, whatever some of its inhabitants and some media hacks may like to think.

Chris Veasey ● 6190d

Having missed this thread for a few days I must say you lot are getting extremely lively.Having been born a southerner and having many types of Celtic blood in the veins and having ventured north of Watford but rarely, I am having difficulty understanding this thread.Chris makes a statement and someone else says it’s not right. But most of what has been said is unverified. Do some of you Northerners like just simple theory? Surely we should focus on whether the proof is in the pudding. {Did that expression come from Yorkshire?}Since BoJo changed the rules I have travelled before 9 a.m. many times. So I DO think it is 24 hour on London Transport these days. The underground ticket machines let me through before 9 a.m., so it must be true. Anyway I have not had to pay and being a practical southerner that is all I am bothered about.P.S.I went to Lewes from Victoria this weekend and it cost £15 return. How did Alan get to Brighton for £3? Was that some cunning northern trick which passed me by?Have just discovered that certain Green Line routes also accept Freedom Passes. Can get from Hammersmith to Windsor and back for nought.

George Knox ● 6189d

"How did Alan get to Brighton for £3?  Was that some cunning northern trick which passed me by?"No, it was a cunning Southern trick ...www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/advance

Richard Jennings ● 6189d

"Chris makes a statement and someone else says it’s not right. But most of what has been said is unverified. Do some of you Northerners like just simple theory? "Surely we should focus on whether the proof is in the pudding. {Did that expression come from Yorkshire?}"Since BoJo changed the rules I have travelled before 9 a.m. many times. So I DO think it is 24 hour on London Transport these days. The underground ticket machines let me through before 9 a.m., so it must be true. Anyway I have not had to pay and being a practical southerner that is all I am bothered about."-  a little biased George -  the unverified assertions have come from both sides of the Great Divide. I don't know the geographical origin of the two who made it personal. I started this thread having checked the printed information supplied with a pass in July this year, which i had no reason to doubt. Somebody else said that's wrong, I checked their source, found they're right and I promptly accepted that. As it was a weekend I waited till yesterday to email the authorities asking what action they took to ensure existing and new passholders had the correct up to date info. I await their response and will post it here if/when it materialises.Being a practical Northerner I use public transport only when it's the best way of travelling, which for the overwhelming majority of the journeys I have to make it just ain't, even if it's free, as explained on another thread on this forum. Doesn't mean I'm an anti-PT petrolhead, quite the reverse  -  I strongly believe PT could and should be much better, even in London.

Chris Veasey ● 6188d

Herewith below the reply from London Councils, just 25 hours after I emailed them  -  prompt, comprehensive and honest, and it seems the fault lies on both sides. I'll have a quiet friendly word with the post office concerned when I'm next passing; but a bit worrying that London Councils can't afford to amend and re-print essential information leaflets like this."Dear Mr Veasey,"Thank you for your email. I am glad that your experience in applying for your freedom pass was as positive one. "London Councils manage the Freedom Pass scheme on behalf of the 33 London boroughs."As part of the Mayor's pledge TfL announced that from 2 January 2009 they would remove any time restrictions on TfL services to allow people over 60 to travel 24 hours. "I am sorry that you were given incorrect information London Councils had instructed Post Offices to remove and destroy all stock of out of date leaflets and you should have not been given a copy."We were unable to produce new leaflets due to restrictions in our budget however TfL placed an advert in their Metro newspaper and updated their website. London Councils also updated their website and the London boroughs advertised the changes in their local newspapers or magazines. Unfortunately there are likely to be a high number of those who did not see this. "We take all comments on board and we hope that our publicity campaign for the 2010 Freedom Pass renewal is more effective in getting the message across to all freedom pass holders and new applicants.Kind regards,Roubinah Essop Burns"

Chris Veasey ● 6188d

"I'll have a quiet friendly word with the post office concerned"Is that all?  I thought this was "a matter of serious concern".  Evidently the PO have "signally failed to discharge" their responsibility -- or do you judge them by different standards from other public bodies?

Richard Jennings ● 6187d

If I'd had to take a bet on who'd come back with that sort of characteristically womanly riposte I'd have won.Yes it is a matter of serious concern, and I'll be having a word with them when I next pass by, keeping it friendly in recognition with their otherwise excellent standard of service; just as I didn't get nasty with the London Councils representative  -  despite that body's astonishing false economy in failing to print and distribute updated leaflets and to advise all existing passholders (who must be on their database)  -  since they appear to recognise their failure and its consequences and to have learned the lesson therefrom.Personally I regard this topic as completed now we know what the situation is. But by all means carry on with your petty, bitchy, tiresome little efforts at point-scoring if you're short of anything more useful and constructive to do.

Chris Veasey ● 6187d