Forum Topic

60  Town Hall Lawyers

I attended a public meeting in Perceval House yesterday at which Helen Harris, Ealing Council's Legal boss, admitted that the Council employed 60 in-house lawyers. At a UK average solicitor salary of £40,000/year that amounts to an annual Council legal salary bill of £2.4 million (which rate payers like me are paying for). She also said that 20 of the lawyers were child law specialists and 3 were full time employment law specialists.If all 32 London Councils have similarly sized legal departments then the London local authorities' annual salary bill for the 1,920 in-house lawyers is £76.8 miilion.I find the size of these figures very worrying. What do others think?

Eric Alan Leach ● 6106d18 Comments

Although i see the need for lawyers, and in those fields in perticular, 60 is bordering on repugnant. Did the council explain why so many owed so much to so few?

Dennis Bailey ● 6106d

What do you call a pile of 60 lawyers under the sea?...........An improvement.

Graham Weeks ● 6105d

How does Ealing's number compare with other boroughs?

Alan Brainsby ● 6105d

A sensible response - but if it's less or more for other London boroughs it's still a bizarre number for Ealing.

Eric Alan Leach ● 6105d

Re  20 of the lawyers were child law specialists and 3 were full time employment law specialists.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      this whole revelation is quite frightening and in particular, what do the child law specialists have to do. Presumably they have to deal with child abuse cases, is there such a large amount of that in Ealing. The employment law specialists can only be dealing with Council employee cases or can anyone in the Borough go to the Council over employment issues, either as employee or employer. If so, they should be charged a fee and pump up the coffers.

Tony Price ● 6105d

I have to say that I'm sceptical of the claim that Ealing council has 60 lawyers squirrelled away - it's more likely to be a legal directorate of 60 people (if that), of which many will be paralegals, support staff etc.In any event, public sector lawyers in London are more likely to be earning £60-£100K depending on number of years qualified - with 19 to 34% employer pension contributions on top of that.

Ed Yelland ● 6105d

Re  I'm sceptical of the claim that Ealing council has 60 lawyers            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    as we are told members of Ealing Council and Councillors read this Forum, they can either confirm or deny the existence of these 60 in-house lawyers and indeed tell us exactly what the situation is

Tony Price ● 6105d

I don't know where you get your info from but I can assure you none of the lawyers I work for in Fulham earn even £60k and the only employer's contribution to a fairly pathetic stakeholder pension which was put in place only about 5 years ago is 3%.  The highest paid lawyer where I work earns £50k and has been qualified 30 years the rest are around the £40k mark.I have also worked for central London firms where 15 years ago a young lawyer I worked with earned £75k he is now an equity partner of one of the top 10 firms and probably earns about £500k.  As far as I can tell from adds in the Law Society Gazette £40k is about the going rate. 

Bernie Paul ● 6105d

I worked for another London Borough Council last year who employed I think four solicitors. There is no way on earth Ealing have fifty

Adrian Orchard ● 6105d

Re  There is no way on earth Ealing have fifty              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        the original post said " sixty " Adrian, don't understate our good fortune !

Tony Price ● 6105d

Eric,I have put a query in with the press office at Ealing and awaiting reply.Will update as soon as.AnnemarieEditor

Editor ● 6105d

And here's the council reply..."There are 55 employees in the Legal and Democratic Services Department, including both full and part-time staff and 29 of the officers are qualified solicitors.  As you would expect of an organisation with an annual budget of more than£900million, there is a considerable caseload for the legal team,which includes child protection cases, awarding of major contracts,ensuring all council decisions are properly made and advising on employment matters.  The council also brings prosecutions against peoplefor offences such as benefit fraud, fly-tipping, breach of licensing regulations and food hygiene offences.  It would be both costly and inefficient for the council to use external solicitors for every case instead of using an in-house team and the department delivers very goodvalue for money, with the cost per household being in the bottom 25% of London boroughs.”   

Editor ● 6104d

EricI guess this is a pretty small percentage of people out of all the employees in the whole Council. Interesting however that they have so many qualified lawyers. Legal Execs and experienced part qualified people often are just as good and cost less - including pensions. Something for our Helen to think about as she searches for more savings under the expected cost cutting Tories in the next few years.

George Knox ● 6103d

"It would be both costly and inefficient for the council to use external solicitors for every case instead of using an in-house team and the department delivers very goodvalue for money"Complete twaddle, or bone faced lying. The refuse collection and road sweeping tenders have shown that the cheapest route to go is by asking for private tendering. That rules out pension costs, insurance and sick pay costs. It forces those involved to reduce the price of their tendering to stay in the market.Ealing Counil's reply is an insult to everyone but the brain dead

Dennis Bailey ● 6103d

I suspect you know little of the legal profession. Where for instance do you find lawyers who are specialists in Public Law except in Councils? Also many lawyers are worked off their feet and so market forces will suggest high market fee rates. Also on a different point, this outsourcing business means many people become poorer. More division in society???

George Knox ● 6103d

"I suspect you know little of the legal profession. Where for instance do you find lawyers who are specialists in Public Law except in Councils?"The law society might be a good start:http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor/action=lawfirmsearch.lawThere are 50+ firms specialising in public and administrative law in London. This is a red herring in any event - you won't find many £mmm organisations that don't use a panel of solicitors to augment a small in house team, thus giving them contestability amongst providers. Also many lawyers are worked off their feet and so market forces will suggest high market fee rates."Also on a different point, this outsourcing business means many people become poorer. More division in society???"Another red herring. Most staff who transfer via outsourcing do so via TUPE i.e. their core terms including pay remain unchanged. And anyway, what's the big problem with council staff transferring to the same terms as most people in the private sector (and tax payers!) have as standard i.e. lower pay, poor pensions, less annual leave and proper performance management? If it's good for everyone else, why not council staff?

Ed Yelland ● 6103d

If you had put much thought into your answer George you would have noticed organisations like the C.A.B. or Law For All who had no trouble finding them. They are around, and in abundance.

Dennis Bailey ● 6103d

re 29 of the officers are qualified solicitors            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  so now we have the answer, thank you for your intervention and outcome

Tony Price ● 6103d