Forum Topic

No 65 Bus Route - Is it the worst in London?

At 6.35pm on Sunday 7th March 2010, I waited at the Ealing Broadway No. 65 bus stop outside the post office for 1.5 hours. During that time, we witnessed two No. 82 buses making detours and 14 almost empty rail replacement buses.  The first No. 65 bus didn't arrive until 7.45pm but drove straight past because it was packed solid with travellers that had also been waiting for a long time at Ealing Broadway tube. During the next 20 minutes, three empty No. 65 buses with interior lights off, drove straight past without making any attempt to stop and pick up passengers. We were finally picked up at 8.05pm.  Weather conditions were dry but with the wind chill felt to be sub-zero.  It was so cold, a fellow passenger offered her scarf to a young mum to help keep her babe in a pushchair warm. Several people called TFL Info whilst waiting to learn there were traffic delays of 45 minutes. During a complaint made to TFL Customer Service, the traffic delay had extended to 60 - 70 minutes and there was also a house fire. I have now received a letter from D. Mitchell, Staff Manager for London United at Fulwell Garage stating traffic delays are now up to 160 minutes and were caused by buses being diverted westbound due to building fire, roadworks at junction of Richmond Road/St. Margaret's Road and Hammersmith Bridge being closed for maintainance.  He admits buses are stopped short of their final destination if running late so that they can be back on time in the opposite direction, and that empty buses are sometimes drivers at the end of their legal driving hours for the day.The 65 bus service has been dubbed the worst in London and appears to travel in threes or fours (I once saw five pull up together at 10.30am outside McDonalds in Brentford).  During the last eight months of 2009, passengers have made 107 complaints about the service – the highest number of any bus in the capital.  The 65 also made it to fourth spot in the top 10 of buses that fail to stick to their timetable. I am normally a forgiving person, but what happened on Sunday evening was the last straw.  D. Mitchell defends his corner, but after using the No. 65 for more than a decade, I have grown sceptical of his reply.  There have always been road works to live with, the Hammersmith Bridge closure is miles to the east, there were no matches at Brentford FC and Twickenham to contend with and traffic on a Sunday evening is often very light.Do you believe the 65 bus service is the worst in London?  Do you have instances of being inconvenienced by the poor service?What suggestions can you make to improve the service?I look forward to your feedback.  Perhaps together we can make Transdev and London United more accountable for their inefficiencies and force them to improve.  Thank you.

Michael Greer ● 6043d18 Comments

You seem to have had a very bad -- unlucky -- experience, but I don't think that you can infer from that that the 65 is one of the worst routes in London. I've used it for 25 years and find it generally one of the more reliable routes.

Susan Kelly ● 6043d

It has an excuse for being unreliable - it's over 100 years old. There's a picture of an LGOC (London General Omnibus Company) route 65 at the southern end of St Mary's Road in the 19-0-0s (1909 I think) in one of the pictorial record books of Ealing.To improve reliability it might make sense to terminate the route at Kew Bridge in both directions (65 North Bank, 65 South Bank); but that's f...g* obvious, isn't it? Think E8 - EB to Brentford.And before anybody says; the Oyster fare could be conjoined between the two parts of the route.* frighteningly

Alan Brainsby ● 6043d

Sorry Susan, read the text again. I wasn't using my experience on Sunday evening as the sole basis of my claim that the 65 is the worst service in London.During the last eight months of 2009, passengers have made 107 complaints about the service – the highest number of any bus in the capital.  The 65 also made it to fourth spot in the top 10 of buses that fail to stick to their timetable.  These are TFL figures released at a London Assembly meeting with Boris at City Hall early December 2009.

Michael Greer ● 6043d

The 65 route certainly doesn't stick to the timetable. I frequently catch the 65 from Ealing Broadway station after work during week the at around 18:30, and often two of them will depart in very close succession. Sometimes two depart simultaneously (why?).  This route seems split opinion because it is erratic. Personally, I have no real cause for complaint because I usually get the E2 from EB station (I live in Northfields). That said, I know from relatives' grumbles that there are often big gaps in the service.

Alex Weel ● 6042d

I don't find it erratic, though. I don't think I've ever waited more than about five minutes for one. Maybe I'm just lucky and the god of buses is watching over me.

Susan Kelly ● 6042d

I was driving from Kingston to South Ealing at that time last Sunday and it was a complete nightmare - taking me 2 and a half hours, the vast majority of it in two jams between Ham and Richmond bridge and then between London Welsh rugby ground and Kew Bridge.  No-one was making any progress, neither cars nor buses, and at least cars could U-turn their way out of there.There's an interesting book for geeks: "Why Do Buses Come In Threes: The Hidden Mathematics of Everyday Life" which explains why, even though buses may start off from depot at equal intervals they are doomed to fail in maintaining that interval and inevitably bunch together.  You could read it when you're next on the bus (if it turns up) ;)

David Whitelam ● 6041d

I don't think splitting the route would help. If traffic is bad down Ealing Road and the London Road, then it'll likely be bad in the Kew Road too.

Susan Kelly ● 6041d

"then it'll likely be bad in the Kew Road too"...... but if it isn't then at least one service will operate normally.There must be times when nearly every 65 bus is travelling in one direction leaving little or no service in the other direction.On several occasions I have been on Ealing-bound 65s when their journeys have been terminated on the north side of Kew Bridge.

Alan Brainsby ● 6041d

I have used both the E2 and 65 for over 10 years and there is a big difference in the reliability of the 65 compared to the E2. The 65 can be very unpredictable and they don't seem to stagger the service like they do with the E2 when there are delays which is why several buses can turn up at once. This rarely happens on the E2 because they regulate the service. I don't understand why the 65 isn't managed in the same way - is it run by a different company? I would definitely avoid using it at busy times on a Saturday because the traffic congetion in Richmond is appalling. If I go shoppping in Kingston I leave before 10am and make sure I come back before 3pm. I don't think it's the worst bus service, but it could be better.

Faith Wardle ● 6037d

There were remarkably similar complaints about 10 years ago, when the 65 was operated by Armchair. Buses would regularly run in twos and threes, with all the delays that suggests.Armchair lost the route in 2002 - presumably in part because of the complaints - and it passed to London United. To begin with the service was superb, with buses running frequently and to schedule.Over the years though it has gradually deteriorated, to the point where it feels almost as bad as it was 10 years ago. Like Michael Greer, I've personal experience of it - I spent 1.5 hours waiting outside South Ealing tube in the rain early one weekday evening late last year, for example. The excuses are always the same - roadworks, congestion, yada yada. I'm familiar with queuing theory and how it helps to explain when buses might run in twos and threes (I guess this is covered in the book that David Whitelam mentions), but the fact is that when London United took the route over it managed to run a very good service. So what has changed? I can't help wondering if the company has either reduced the number of drivers and buses on the route, or has made some foolish change to its operating procedures designed to "improve efficiency"!

Bryan Betts ● 6031d

The E2 is a much shorter route and runs along a routing that has less hazards and narrow sections.The 65 is already split as the southern section to Chessington and Leatherhead is covered by the 71 and 465.Splitting it again is pointless as there would no longer be a direct link between the three main towns of the south west and west of London.The current problems are not down to the operator but TfL for not managing the road works and some of the ill thought out traffic schemes that dog the entire route.The latest to cause problems is the narrowing of Bond St. One parked car or light van can now block the entire area and when this is picked up on Ibuss and control cameras is leading to buses being diverted to terminate at Brentford as the delays and turning points between Brentford and Ealing have now been removed and the new buses are too long to use the former South Ealing Stn turnaround.Whilst the nice new paving in Bond St looks good, the hazards that the narrowowing and outreach parts create are going to cause constant unexpected delays.How is it that the bus operators or TfL or even the road engineers designers cannot seem to grasp this obvious problem and deal with it.? It will now probably be beyond any budget to correct this.

Michael Brandt ● 6031d

The E2 is a much shorter route and runs along a routing that has less hazards and narrow sections.The 65 is already split as the southern section to Chessington and Leatherhead is covered by the 71 and 465.Splitting it again is pointless as there would no longer be a direct link between the three main towns of the south west and west of London.The current problems are not down to the operator but TfL for not managing the road works and some of the ill thought out traffic schemes that dog the entire route.The latest to cause problems is the narrowing of Bond St. One parked car or light van can now block the entire area and when this is picked up on Ibuss and control cameras is leading to buses being diverted to terminate at Brentford as the delays and turning points between Brentford and Ealing have now been removed and the new buses are too long to use the former South Ealing Stn turnaround.Whilst the nice new paving in Bond St looks good, the hazards that the narrowowing and outreach parts create are going to cause constant unexpected delays.How is it that the bus operators or TfL or even the road engineers designers cannot seem to grasp this obvious problem and deal with it.? It will now probably be beyond any budget to correct this.

Michael Brandt ● 6031d

Route 65 is also split at its northern end, at least on Sundays. In the 1950s the Sunday service was extended to Argyle road, now covered by routes E10 and 297.A regards linking main towns there are no direct bus links to Hammersmith, Harrow, or Hounslow from central Ealing.I would agree about the bad traffic management of the route but much of the problem is the lack of enforcement of parking/waiting laws.

Alan Brainsby ● 6031d

As a several times daily user of the 65, properly parked vehicles are rarely a problem but there are hot spots where there is no proper parking enforcement and bad road layouts that cause the delays.The changes to Bond Street now means that a mere Mini breaking down can block the entire road. If a light van or HGV breaks down or delivers, the road is now completely impassable. Who actually thought of this? Bus drivers have been instructed not to 'bounce' the kerbs in Bond St as the edges are so sharp that they are slicing the tyres. So they have to switch off and wait for the obstruction to clear. This has happened 4 times in the last 3 weeks and in 23 years I cannot recall this ever happening here in normal traffic conditionsIn Ealing it is the hump at the top of the High street and Ealing Green that is constantly parked upon. This blocks the road completely and on busy Saturdays when the queue to the car park can tail back to this point the road is blocked for anything bigger than a small car. yet there is seldom a warden or ticket issued there. But a different story at the pay and display bays where it's tickets-a-plenty and yet no congestion is being caused.The next bad point is the short bit of road between Popes Lane and The South Ealing road stop south of the junction. A shop owner with a large 4WD constantly parks right by the junction followed by other cars. It is often the same on the north side of the junction. Again, I have never seen any form of enforcement but park 1 min over the 20 on the stop and shop bays and you're nicked in seconds.The north side of the junction has been improved of late but the whole junction needs to be kept clear of parked cars at all times.meanwhile over the border, Hounslow have marked the bottom end of South Ealing road to allow residents to part pavement park which has made a huge difference as now two oncoming vehicles can actually pass..I'm pleased to say that I suggested this to the Hounslow officers and they acted within days. So hat's off to them.

Michael Brandt ● 6031d

This goes back to what I have already said on this forum - no parking on any bus route, including "back" roads, while the service is in operation except in defined bays - sort of "red route" but for a longer period.Proper enforcement and proper fines (not the current £1 shop variety - what's £80? A night's drinking?) of £250 upwards and no discount.

Alan Brainsby ● 6031d

sorry my dear, have you tried buses 266 and 92? you'll know 65 is a blessing!

Efe Smith ● 6030d

I am beginning to agree with all the comments here. I use the "service" (or lack of it) at least twice a week and more in the summertime. I have also witnessed the "convoys" of up to 3 or 4 buses travelling closely to one another - then playing a racing game along Kew Road with one packed bus, one half full and two virtually empty. There seems to be no control at Ealing Broadway terminus where they line up and hang around for ages before moving off. I thing 45-50 minutes is the longest I have had to wait. I have also been thrown off at Brentford for no apparent reason "The destination of this bus has changed". I was on the 65 last summer when this happened and we all refused to get off - ultimately we all did have to get off as the driver refused to move on. Another packed 65 came on and some of us got on that. I have frequently walked from Brentford to Ealing - and in fact not a single 65 passed me until I got to about Ealing Green. Something really needs to be done to rectify this.

Alan Martin ● 6024d

Having looked into this and had no reply from TfL or the GLA transport committee who don't seem to have much grasp of passenger transport practicalities whatsoever, I sought out those in the know.I have had a reasonable reply from management at Transdev who at least informed me as to why the buses run empty.However trade publications reveal the real problem. It is not parked traffic that causes problems in the UK and London but very poor road management  which includes roadworks but also a lot of road remodelling which does not appear to transfer from delightful computer images to reality.No-one is checking widths of vehicles in relation to roads and passing spaces, vehicle mirror overhangs and safe manouverability for vehicles in excess of 30ft.There are simply too many chiefs and not enough indians and what starts out as a good improvement ends up being muddied, meddled and in the end looks nice but fails purpose.  -- Bond street is now a classic example.But more is revealed in this months 'Buses' magazine. In London alone, as suspected, it is the i-bus system that is being used in the wrong way, resulting in controllers (who have no idea of a buses loading) making decisions based on contract fulfillment.TfL have really screwed up here and need to be taken to task on their inability to put things right.Also revealed in the said publication is a well informed letter from a Bus driver (who have to endure the wrath of angry travellers)  It shows from their perspective the failings of the system which has brought the services back to the point they were at 30 years ago -sans- expensive technology.We would all have been better of keeping Blakey!

Michael Brandt ● 6022d