Forum Topic

Ash Parks · 05/12/2010 13:23:00

new.EalingToday.co.uk Communtity Forum Topic posting

The IMMIGRATION Thread - for sensible debate please

Since about half of the threads on the Ealing Today Forum appear to end in riotous derailment into the subject of immigration, I thought I would start a thread exclusively for those wishing to sensibly debate the topic. I don't mind kicking off with the proposal that the current (presumably soon to be changed) government policy and conduct regarding immigration has resulted a situation of population growth that cannot sensibly be maintained. That said, there is a serious lack of data to support much theorising about the effects, cultural or economic, of our current situation with regard to immigration. There are both minor positive and negative impacts of immigration in various sectors according to parliamentary and independent bodies. All admit that data is hard to come by due to the inadequacy of government monitoring methods.So what are your thoughts?

Ash Parks ● 5983d159 Comments

Light the blue touch paper and retire (very quickly!)

J Smith ● 5983d

That's an inflammatory remark.

Ash Parks ● 5983d

I meant it in the nicest possible way. You know exactly what is going to happen. Around 11pm onwards, Tony Price, Robin Taylor etc will start posting, going off topic and insulting one another.All I will say is, bring back George Jiri! At least his comments could be smiled at.

J Smith ● 5983d

A sensible thread, Ash.As someone whose town has been changed more than any other by immigration (mine is one of the very few non-Asian families on this street) I feel better qualified to discuss this than most.Immigration has been enormously beneficial to this country. Sadly, the media (including the taxpayer-funded BBC) like to talk about it as a problem.To a very large extent, immigrants and their descendents staff our hospitals, drive our public transport, arrange and deliver meals on wheels to OAPs, provide employment (I'm employed by immigants, btw), run our councils, staff & manage our restaurants, clean our streets, create our music, etc., etc. You name it and the contribution of immigrants is immense.They have also, in many cases, brought their own food, clothes, styles, culture, traditions and religions with them to these shores. This has enriched us all (accept those who are too blinkered to recognise the benefits).And, anecdotally, I have found that many immigrant and immigrant-descended groups - especially those from the Indian sub-continent - are far easier to live with than some of the so-called indigenous peoples. They are generally more tolerant and peaceful and, further more, put up with more and complain about it less.One last thing: although he was not of the party I vote for, one of the people who did so much to transform this into a multi-racial society was the late Sir Edward Heath. As well as being a great statesman in his own right, he did a number of crucial things that helped to defeat the racist right and make this a civilised country: chief among them, he destroyed Enoch Powell. He also ensured the safe passage of entry to these shores of the Ugandan Asian refugees and took us into Europe.At a Downing Street function about six weeks ago, I pointed to the portrait of this great former leader and declared to one of the younger people in our Labour-voting group these words: "A great man, that."These are my views on immigration.

Robin Taylor ● 5983d

Thanks Robin.The wonderful cultural diversity that immigration has brought to the UK is a joy. I agree whole-heartedly that it is enriching.The economic benefits are more contentious. There is an argument that doesn't really hold water that work is being done by immigrants because the incumbent population won't, can't or that there are not enough of them to fill the vacancies. Importing a labour force is not the only option.It is hard to measure the economic benefits because obviously, due to immigration, the economy is bigger and the demands on public services and housing are greater. Apparently the biggest beneficiaries are the immigrants and their UK employers, with consumers and tax payers benefitting too. The economic effects appear to be fairly minor, from what data is available.Our foreign-born population is less than ten per cent. The United States is about 13, Australia about 24, Switzerland 23. So I would suggest that claims of uncontrolled mass immigration from some of the popular press is far beyond a reasonable assessment.

Ash Parks ● 5983d

Heath was the worst Conservative PM of the last century. First thing to do to control immigration is to get out of the mess that is the EU which traitor Heath got us enmeshed with.

Graham Weeks ● 5983d

Heath was the worst Conservative PM of the last century. First thing to do to control immigration is to get out of the mess that is the EU which traitor Heath got us enmeshed with.

Graham Weeks ● 5983d

"Heath was the worst Conservative PM of the last century."The fact that Graham Weeks says this is proof that Heath was a great statesman.P.S.:- in the year 2000, myself and some friends went to the House of Commons to deliver Sir Edward a giant birthday card. It contained a message thanking him for (amongst other things) destroying Enoch Powell, and it ended with this comment:- "Not everyone realises how important your life has been in the fight against racism and nationalism. We do."

Robin Taylor ● 5983d

If I'm honest about it I think that everyone has benefitted in one way or an other from immigration, For me the biggest problem is MASS immigration. Mass immigration was forced on the population which is where I think it went wrong.

Andy Wright ● 5983d

It has been roundly demonstrated that MASS immigration is a myth perpetrated by the political media.

Ash Parks ● 5983d

Massive would be a better word than mass, perhaps.Up until recently immigration was at a level where incomers could be steadily absorbed into the existing society, and though they might have economic migrants the did seek work.The recent influx appears, for whatever reasons, to be composed of benefits immigrants.

Alan Brainsby ● 5983d

I dont think so Ash.By its very nature, If immigration is not controlled then how can the UK provide an infrastructure to cope for the demand ? Im talking about hospitals, education, police ect ect.

Andy Wright ● 5983d

Re entry to these shores of the Ugandan Asian refugees xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx usual falsehoods and rubbish from this racist source. Heath had no option but to let in the East African Asians. They had British passports and India refused them entry into that country which would have been their natural homeland. Does that make the Indians racist or purely protectionist. My views on immigration are not racict like the person to whom this post is in response to. As individuals I accept an immigrant each on their merits, as one would with any individual but mass immigration is a no no. When a peoples feel obliged to leave their environment, area where they have traditionally lived, worked, been educated and built it up and become part of it because of influx of persons alien to themselves and their culture, that I M O is unacceptable and immoral. A classic example of that locally is Southall and the Forums' racist says Perivale is becoming as good, almost. Such an attitude is the most vile form of racism possible, indefensible and totally out of order. Sadly, much of London has gone the same way as was brought home to me 4years ago ? when I was still buying the Ealing Gazette weekly, and in one issue were the photos of the first year intake of all the schools in the Borough and I was immediately struck by the absence of white faces in most classes. This got me thinking, so I examined the photos in great detail and found my initial suspicions were true, we are being swamped and outnumbered in our own Borough. Some white kids are the only one in their class. And the situation has got worse as far as we are concerned. It must be racists exist as they prefer to have an area swamped by immigrants, one racist prefers those from the Indian sub-continent and is well pleased Perivale is being taken over by them. That is nothing other than racism and of the vilest sort. Wembley has gone and Tower Hamlets, place of much postal voting frauds recently, has declared itself an Islamic Borough. Hopefully now that Clegg has within one day seen the error of his ways on mass immigration there will be much less.

Tony Price ● 5982d

"If immigration is not controlled then how can the UK provide an infrastructure to cope for the demand ?"Quite the contrary, how can we maintain our infrastructure WITHOUT immigration?

Robin Taylor ● 5982d

"My views on immigration are not racict"LOL!"...the photos of the first year intake of all the schools in the Borough and I was immediately struck by the absence of white faces in most classes. This got me thinking, so I examined the photos in great detail..."Pure evil."Hopefully now that Clegg has within one day seen the error of his ways on mass immigration there will be much less."Do you seriously think so? Well, dream on.

Robin Taylor ● 5982d

SENSIBLE DEBATE please.Read this and discuss it contents. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82.pdf It is a report on the economic impact of current UK immigration from the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee. It will give you some insight with which to form a balanced view. Here is another from Civitas http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Rowthorn_Immigration.pdf

Ash Parks ● 5982d

"Quite the contrary, how can we maintain our infrastructure WITHOUT immigration?"The operative word is 'maintain' which means to keep what we have in goo order, not expand, extend, increase, or any other word or phrase to indicate enlargenment.

Alan Brainsby ● 5982d

Sorry Andy, I wasn't clear. I meant immigration isn't happening in the way some newspapers say it is. Immigration is not at "mass" levels, whatever "mass" means. "Mass" is not a term of measure, it is simply a way for some people to say "excessive" and make it sound scary to certain other people. I agree with your surmise that demand on the UK public service infrastructure and housing would exceed supply if immigration is excessive and not controlled properly. Who could disagree with that? However, the issues at hand are a.) is the UK in this position? (it isn't at the moment according to research) and b.) what controls are necessary?I've attached links in my post further down to some papers on the subject which clearly states that although immigration is higher than is sustainable and needs to be controlled better, it is certainly not "mass", whatever "mass" means, and there are minor positive and negative impacts at the moment.

Ash Parks ● 5982d

Hi Ash.So what would you class as mass immigration?And how would you describe whats heppening in the UK?

Andy Wright ● 5982d

Re Pure evil. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx explanation required

Tony Price ● 5982d

If you can't work it out, then you need help.

Robin Taylor ● 5981d

Re Do you seriously think so? Well, dream on. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx well you obviously know differently, so please tell us what how where and why, let us into your special knowledge.

Tony Price ● 5981d

Re If you can't work it out, then you need help. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx well why offer something if you can't deliver or bottle out when taken up on your offer, doesn't incur much faith in your bona fides, which is highly suspect anyway due to your constant peddling of racism

Tony Price ● 5981d

I wish you two would get a room together and work out your problems elsewhere.

Ash Parks ● 5981d

They won't - I already asked that one on another thread.

J Smith ● 5981d

Hello Andy,"So what would you class as mass immigration?"I wouldn't use such a term, I think of immigration and emigration as a balance, with the economy as the fulcrum. If the economy and resources can not grow quickly enough to fulfil demand, with regard to immigration, then immigration levels are probably excessive and not sustainable. However, there is a variety of immigrant type and thought must be given to these demographics as there will be different reasons why the UK is attractive for each. The same would be true of emmigration, where the economy shrinks excessively."And how would you describe whats heppening in the UK?"If I infer from this correctly, I have discussed this elsewhere, not least in the OP of this thread. Or are you asking for a term or phrase to describe what's happening?

Ash Parks ● 5981d

I think they are both contenders for the intellectual equivalent of the Darwin Awards.

Ash Parks ● 5981d

"intellectual equivalent of the Darwin Awards."That would be the Ig Nobel Award then.

Alan Brainsby ● 5981d

Robin would I be right in saying that Southall is a predominantly Asian area???Would I also be right in saying that the community/population in your home town is largly made up of immigration???Robin I would like to take this oppertunity to make a quote from this weeks Ealing Gazette.'Southall is a hotspot for business crime' May 12 2010 By James Gates Southall has become one of the five worst spots for business crime in the UK according to a new study.The most recent AXA Business Crime Index shows that the area has jumped from thirty-third to fifth place in the UK for businesses which are victims of crime.The statistics showed there was a small decrease in numbers of reported business crime but also that violence is used in more than 50 per cent of incidents. The other hot spots in the top five are Bradford, central London, Manchester and Halifax.Insp Rob Bryan, head of Southall Police said: "It is positive to see that overall crime numbers have dropped slightly, but I am concerned that Southall has ranked so high for business crime. The police treat all crimes seriously, and I will be looking hard at how we can work even more closely with the business community of Southall to reduce these numbers"."Local Safer Neighbourhood Teams already work closely with businesses in Southall to reduce crimes and anti-social behaviour. For example, we recently implement the Alertbox scheme in Old Southall, where business can contact police via radio, which has reduced crime by 33% and reduced demand by 14 per cent."This is positive work and I hope to expand it into other business areas of Old Southall in the near future. I think a strong Business Watch in Southall Broadway would also help build links with the police and I urge anyone who wants to be an active part of such a group to contact me."Call 020 8721 2907 for information on Business WatchEnjoy.

Andy Wright ● 5980d

Hi Ash.The economy being the fulcrum is the problem mate.A State school place for example costs between 6-9k a year per child. An immgrant working on a building site for a few years might pay 5k a year in tax. If he's got two kids here he's costing 10s of thousands more than he contributes even if he always works.That before we look at medical costs,If they are on a low wage so they get housing benefit,working tax credit,child benefit ect ect.Most immigrants dont earn a great deal of money Ash and all the while the tax payer picks up the bill, the fulcrum will ALWAYS be there.

Andy Wright ● 5980d

Your point being?

Robin Taylor ● 5980d

Want me to draw you a picture???

Andy Wright ● 5980d

Tell you what...Why not draw a picture of hundreds of thugs rioting at a football match.Then take a good look at their ethnicity.What does that tell you?

Robin Taylor ● 5980d

Football should be banned!

J Smith ● 5980d

Re Then take a good look at their ethnicity.What does that tell you? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx take a look at the murders, stabbings, knife crime drug dealing in London and look at the ethncity. What does that tell you?

Tony Price ● 5980d

Take a look at the murders committed by police officers, and look at their ethnicity. What does that tell you?

Robin Taylor ● 5979d

Re What does that tell you? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx nothing, absolutely nothing bearing in mind the VAST majority of police are indigenous European plus any deaths in custody are not what can be described as murders as such but accidental deaths while in custody.

Tony Price ● 5979d

If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

Robin Taylor ● 5979d

All of that can be said about the "indigenous" population, Andy.

Ash Parks ● 5978d

Yes. But relative percentages?

Alan Brainsby ● 5978d

I have posted links to three large documents on the subject. Anyone read any of it?If you want to discuss this issue, it's probably best to do a bit of reading other than the newspapers. Otherwise all you are getting is a political angle on the subject.

Ash Parks ● 5978d

You people really ought to question your motives for posting these comments. It's almost as if you are trying to justify your views about people of certain ethnicity, or certain groups in society. It really does look a bit dodgy.

Ash Parks ● 5978d

Ash,If you actually follow the way this thread has gone, you will see that certain posters started making remarks that were intended to stereotype people from minority ethnic groups in relation to alleged criminal acts.I merely responded by playing devil's advocate: I highlighted some types of crime where it could be argued that BME groups are under-represented.What's wrong with that?

Robin Taylor ● 5978d

I genuinely believe that immigration is the single most urgent issue for this new government to deal with.This tiny island cannot possibly sustain any more immigrants,as well as all the problems they bring.Multiculturalism seemed a good idea but it clearly doesn't work-like oil and water,different cultures do not mix.It isn't fair to expect this country to have such conflicting cultures forced on us when there is very little common ground.Many of our problems would be greatly alieviated if the immigration laws were tightened and the UK border agency given more powers.At the moment,even though they catch hundreds of illegals,they have to release them because the illegals deliberately dispose of all ID documents...this should change....ie.no passport.no stay..The numbers of immigrants now are so huge that we are losing our identity-even out town centres often look more like middle eastern market places.They cost the country too much for which we have paid and the immigrants have made no contribution.Therfore there is a huge imbalance adding to our economic demise.They are a huge burden on NHS,schools, housing etc.etc..it is very depressing every day to read unbelievable accounts in the media of outrageous activities eg.fraud,corruption etc..yet they get leniency in the courts.eg.two pakistani terrorists allowed to stay here under human rights laws..yet a British lady arrested and tagged for selling a goldfish to a 14 yr old..it's not acceptable and things MUST change.Also I strongly believe that anyone wanting to live here should be required to speak English before being issued a British passport.We should not have to have publications,medical records,street and public signs etc..written in dozens of different languages..another huge cost to us as well as having to provide interpreters.It is highly insulting and proof that the immigrants do not want to integrate.Schools are stretched having to deal with kids who cannot speak English,holding our children back.....It has all got to stop.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5975d

WHAT PLANET ARE YOU ON...IDIOT...OR IS THIS A JOKE.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5975d

Didn't see many brown faces running in the London Marathon.........

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5975d

Of course it's MASS....short for massive.School classes with 75% ethnics,streets with just one or two non-immigrant families,hospital waiting rooms predominately non-white patients,public signs and publications in many different languages.Is it any wonder that the indiginous people feel and are being outnumbered.The fact that many immigrants can't even bother to learn English is proof that they don't want to integrate.Schools having to provide extra teachers paid for by us because the kids can't speak Englsih.No one should be issued with a British passport without having fluency in spokenEnglish and parent's should ensure that their children can speak our language before starting school Botom line.....IMMIGRATION MUST STOP if this country has any hope of getting back to some sort of progress...ENOUGH IS ENOUGH....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

It's not just the media...it's blatantly obvious in daily life.Schools mostly non-white,streets with very few non-immigrant households,whole town centres with mostly asian shops..halal..etc...it's everywhere...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

Re Of course it's MASS....short for massive.School classes with 75% xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx when the indigenous population is reduced to 12.5% I would most certainly say it is mass, indeed more of a wipe-out, which has happened in Southall, and the most vociferous inhabitant thereof crows that it is so much to it's betterment, he also crows he would open an office in India to pour more in and that Perivale is almost as good, not quite YET then we can see the traitors in our midst peddling true racism for all its worth. Favouring one race above others is racism and that person consistently proves beyond any doubt he is the biggest racist on these Forums. His whole life revolves around pushing racism but the amazing thing is he cannot see it, or is it that he doesn't want to because when he looks in the mirror he doesn't like what he sees. Many boroughs in London , Marie have gone the same way sadly and what no-one has yet been able to explain how the mass immigration replacing indigs has been an improvement. And also what the traitors have not explained how the members of this mass immigration manage to live in the 2nd most expensive city in the world. For one example, the UK has the biggest influx of Somalis anywhere in the world and London the greater part of that, 65% are on benefits and 80% in social housing. The Afghan woman in Acton with her brood of 7 children draining the Exchequer at the rate of £185.000 every year just for gracing us with their presence is one extreme example but she ain't the only one by any means. And on the question of schools content Marie, I must tell you the % you cite at 75 is way understated. I initially only had a cursory glance at the composition last Oct but there are several classes where the % is more like 95%. The Forum's racist keeps reminding me I haven't done my analysis yet and for which I apologise, I am now 8 months late, sorry for that. Must try to do better!

Tony Price ● 5974d

"indeed more of a wipe-out, which has happened in Southall, and the most vociferous inhabitant thereof crows that it is so much to it's betterment..."The difference between me and you is that I actually LIVE HERE, so I know what I'm talking about (unlike you and your cronies at Migration Watch).

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

"streets with very few non-immigrant households"How do you know which households are non-immigrant?Have you asked the occupants of each house whether they were born here??

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

In her post of 21/05/10 00:10 (further up the thread) Marie than goes on to complain about the number of "non-whites" in schools. We can see, therefore, that her rant about immigration is based on pure 100% racism.

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

R.Taylor....yes I do know...also being born here doesn't make you British...if you were born in a stable does that make you a HORSE..idiot....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

R.Taylor...Not a rant..a list of facts...go and wait outside a local school at 3.30pm.No not racism...it's REALISM....all you can do is cast aspertions and stick labels when you cannot uphold an intelligent observation....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

R.Taylor..you are so fultile,blind and are incapable of holding a sensible conversation....get a life....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

Marie Anne,You have been asked to provide evidence for what you say are "facts" before, and you have declined to do so. Take some tome to read the various documents, links to which I have posted here on this thread, and see what you make of them. At the moment, you are ranting. I had hoped for sensible debate in this thread. Please feel free to start your own thread for ranting if you wish, but please kindly try to present reasoned argument on this one. Currently, you sound like you don't like non-white people and that you wish they weren't here. Your contributions have so far have had nothing whatsoever to do with the economic impact of immigration in the UK.

Ash Parks ● 5974d

Quite

George Knox ● 5974d

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

Much of the problem of immigration is that the recently ousted government couldn't itself provide an anywhere near accurate account of the numbers of 'gate-crashers' into this country.I would agree that if individuals enter the country then they are not counted in or out but that is not my, or your, problem. That is a reason why we have governance, which in the case of the last lot was cr*p.If, as has been shown, the last government 'imported' legal entrants to boast its vote then it didn't work very well, did it?Any Labour MP who got elected on the basis of the 'legal' entrant vote should be ashamed of him or herself.Regardless of identity cards, of which I am in favour, one can only hope that the Coalition will make a robust attempt to find, and isolate, those individuals who have no right to be here.Could one reasonably assume that asylum seekers will be repatriated when conditions in their home countries are appropriate?

Alan Brainsby ● 5974d

If you must send inane messages,at least learn to spell properly...you obviously need to learn English grammar along with some of your neighbours !!!

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

Again not rant but simple facts...read the daily newspapers and educate yourself.Yes economic impact..eg..benefits,fraud corruption,housing,huge costs associated with providing interpreters,extra school staff etc....since many don't even bother to learn English together with public notices in other languages etc.etc..etc...need I continue...Bottom line,I don't have to reiterate facts to you or anyone else..immigration is a huge problem in this country and has to be stopped...END OF STORY....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

Marie Anne, if the only source of information you can cite is the popular press, you have discredited yourself far more keenly than any more robust counter argument could have done.The sadness therein is that you appear not at all interested in educating yourself, and I do now firmly believe you are highly prejudiced regarding people you know little or nothing about other than what you read in the popular right wing press.Why do you refuse to read the document in the OP from the Economic Affairs Committee regarding the economic impact of immigration? Just the summary at the end will do. Maybe afterwards, you might understand the situation a little better, and realise you don't need to have so much inner hatred ruining your life?

Ash Parks ● 5974d

Not necessary.....just look around you every day and every where...it isn't rocket science and I don't need to study economics to interpret what my eyes tell me.You know nothing about me ..not prejudiced just a realist unlike those living in cloud cuckoo land....wake up and smell the coffee....and for your imformation I am highly educated.....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5974d

Re We can see, therefore, that her rant about immigration is based on pure 100% racism. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx no it's not, it is based on survival as any decent citizen would. You are the only one on these Forums who peddles racism. You advocate it, you praise it, you preach it, you applaud it, you are the Forums' racist without equal.

Tony Price ● 5974d

Re stick labels when you cannot uphold an intelligent observation.... xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx careful Marie, you're addressing a racist and they ain't noted for truth or commonsense but the sowing of discontent and ill-feeling.

Tony Price ● 5974d

Re asylum seekers will be repatriated when conditions in their home countries are appropriate? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx don't hold your breath Alan. It won't happen. The childrens' schooling will be one reason, and the vast majority of children in our schools are not white British.

Tony Price ● 5974d

What a disgustingly racist remark.A lot of "my neighbours" speak much better grammatical English than your sort - even though it's not their mother tongue. And unlike you, they do not pepper every sentence with foul-mannered "f" and "c" words.

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

"...immigration is a huge problem in this country..."It's not half as big a problem as the issue of ignorant, uneducated wastes of space like you.

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

"and for your imformation I am highly educated....."Quite the contrary, madam, you are the personification of all that is pig ignorant.

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

"...and for your imformation I am highly educated....."Really? And you think that's how you spell "information"? God help us.

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

"You are the only one on these Forums who peddles racism. You advocate it, you praise it, you preach it..."Coming from you I presume this is supposed to be a compliment, yes?

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

Didn't see many brown faces running in the London Marathon.........-------------------------------------------------One would normally expect this to be taken as evidence of racism. Make a comment like this in a normal UK workplace and upon a complaint being made, you can probably expect to be immediately suspended pending an investigation. I wouldn't say things like this too loudly at work in the airport, Marie Anne.

Ash Parks ● 5974d

Re this is supposed to be a compliment, yes? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx no, a resounding no. You are the Forums' racist plain and simple. That is what you are, get used to it

Tony Price ● 5974d

"I wouldn't say things like this too loudly at work in the airport, Marie Anne."Oh I don't know, she'd get the backing of the goons at the Daily Mail. Anyone who doesn't share her foul prejudices would be accused of being "against freedom of speech".

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

I thought irony would be too subtle for a thickie like you - looks like I was right.

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

Re looks like I was right. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx what's that, from a racist's point of view. Can't change your spots I suppose

Tony Price ● 5974d

"...from a racist's point of view..."You've stuck up for the BNP on this forum, so the above comment just shows how twisted your logic is.

Robin Taylor ● 5974d

Re You've stuck up for the BNP on this forum, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx so what, I have stuck up for the Koran before but doesn't make me a Muslim. And the B N P have done some very good work, highlighted the Revised Tenancy Agreement 2001, brought N L to account re the perverseness of mass immigration and opposed racists like you.

Tony Price ● 5974d

"And the B N P have done some very good work...and opposed racists like you."The other day I and others were out walking. I suddenly heard a squelch. I looked down to the pavement.I exclaimed to my friends "Oh no, I've trodden in a Tony Price!"Not a pleasant experience.

Robin Taylor ● 5973d

""I exclaimed to my friends "Oh no, I've trodden in a Tony Price!"Not a pleasant experience. ""....Why? Did your friends beat you up?

Alan Brainsby ● 5973d

Tony,I feel that you seriously think about reporting Mr.Taylor.He is an obnoxious individual who is not capable of rational dicussion.He uses every posting on which to hang vitriolic abuse and insults.He is not interested in the subject matter and as such has no business being part of this forum....hope you have saved his postings...good luck...

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5973d

Re Not a pleasant experience xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx neither is your mind control by the seems of it. How you are allowed to stay on these Forums with the vile posts you make coupled with the peddling of racism escapes me. The posters on the Chiswick ? Forum ( Brentwood and Hounslow ) told you to shove off back to Southall with your bile and persistent attempts to dispense disharmony, discord , unpleasantness and general ill-feeling. May Khali have mercy on your soul.

Tony Price ● 5973d

Re Why? Did your friends beat you up? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx are you not pleased Alan you don't have a cesspit of a mind like his. Beggars belief he is allowed to post his vile rubbish. There is certainly something wrong there.

Tony Price ● 5973d

Yet ANOTHER Saturday night behind the keyboard for Tony Price!Says it all, really, doesn't it?

Robin Taylor ● 5972d

Again pot, kettle Marie. As I have said before, both Robin and Tony can be defined as racist (which is the ugliest word that can be used nowadays) except they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Me, I take people on face value, not on their beliefs or skin colour.On the whole I believe that there should be more regulations and checks on people (please note I am saying people)who wish to emigrate here. Am I right in saying that Australia only allows people to emigrate there if they have a skill that is needed?

J Smith ● 5972d

Australia doesn't import poverty...

Alan Brainsby ● 5972d

Re Am I right in saying that Australia only allows people to emigrate there if they have a skill that is needed? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yep, and a job lined up to boot, and no mass immigration to build up voting fodder!!. Those who did that here ( and their advocates ) should be tried as traitors. Is that Gate still at Tyburn?

Tony Price ● 5972d

All I can say is that you people must have very sad unevenful lives judging by the time you spend on this forum.You are like children or bitchy women backbiting and winding each other up. Some of the content should be reported as being abusive and bears litle relation to the original topic.I'm really busy now so must go...carry on with your petty cattiness....meow...meow....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5972d

Andy, what your analysis below doesn't include, fatally, is what those building site worker's kids are going to do. If they're well schooled they will grow up to contribute far more to the economy than their father's "£5k" tax a year, even if that is all he pays.Among the things they're going to pay for is your pension, actually - as well as your health care. They're also going to help staff all these things. We have a huge population crisis brewing, with more and more elderly and less and less active healthy people to pay for them. The last thing we need is people trying to tot up the £5K vs. the cost of an education - the true balance is between what it costs to bring up a child here, and what that child will give back once it grows up.Also, the £5K is one extreme of the spectrum. On average immigrants are better educated and work at a higher level than non-immigrants, so the average should take into account all the doctors, accountants, and whatever - which certainly isn't £5K.Your fulcrum is based on an incorrect assumption, which is why your analysis is wrong.________________________________Hi Ash.The economy being the fulcrum is the problem mate.A State school place for example costs between 6-9k a year per child. An immgrant working on a building site for a few years might pay 5k a year in tax. If he's got two kids here he's costing 10s of thousands more than he contributes even if he always works.That before we look at medical costs,If they are on a low wage so they get housing benefit,working tax credit,child benefit ect ect.Most immigrants dont earn a great deal of money Ash and all the while the tax payer picks up the bill, the fulcrum will ALWAYS be there

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

I disagree completely Gerald.Your entire point hinges on wether or not these folk actually stay here for life.According to the last government lots of immigrants were going back home.As for paying for my pension...I'm paying for my own pension, thats one of the reasons why I pay tax.Its not just the cost of education Gerald.Last year the bill for translators just for the metropolitan police force topped 20 million pounds...Thats just ONE police force ! And the cost of keeping foreign prisoners here cost the taxpayer 400 million pounds... so if you look at the whole picture its not so rosy is it??How many nurses,doctors,teachers and police men would 420 million pounds provide???Its all the other benefits that go hand in hand ( housing benefit,working tax credit, disability allowance, job seekers allowance....the list is ENDLESS )plus healthcare,policing and infastructure.Most the immigrants I have met are not highly educated, if they were so highly educated then why are they working on building sites or as nannies,gardeners ect ect ??And whilst were on the subject of children, what about those foreign workers who claim child benefit for their children who are not even in the UK?? How does that benefit the UK Gerald??

Andy Wright ● 5971d

I think the thing here, Andy, is that you're talking about the people you think are typical immigrants, and I'm talking about the people I think are.With all respect, you've said before you work on a building site (perhaps at quite a high managerial level, I don't know, but anyway that's the folks you see), so "Most the immigrants I have met are not highly educated, if they were so highly educated then why are they working on building sites" is a completely circular argument. I work in healthcare and I meet a *lot* of immigrants, all of whom are highly educated, highly motivated, and are very responsible parents who are settled here for life. They are no different to you in any way, other than having been born elsewhere. Making generalisations about them, in the way you have done in these posts, makes no more sense than it would to waffle on about people from Liverpool coming to London and adding to congestion, etc. etc. They're just normal people, who live here, pay tax, and send their kids to school.A lot of what you talk about seems like anecdote and even if true, applies only to a narrow band of benefit scroungers - of which there are many here, including native-born. The stats show that the average educational level of an immigrant is higher than the UK average for everyone. Who you meet on a building site, and the sort of benefits tales you tell, is just a narrow slice of life, even those parts of it which are not exaggeration and rumour. I don't doubt you see what you see (or, at least, hear what you hear) but the problem with your logic is taking these stories and saying "see, this is what immigrants do/are". A doctor from Poland has as little to do with a plumber from Brazil or a benefits cheat from Spain, as a Spanish plumber has with a Polish cheat or a Brazilian doctor - or any of them with a British builder or accountant or whatever. The problem with your analysis is the way you lump people together based on 'born here or not born here'.And you're wrong about your pension and healthcare, or at least your State ones. The cash you pay is going into paying for pensions and healthcare *at the moment*. It is not set aside for you. If there are more older people by the time you're old, and less young people to work and pay taxes, you will not get back what you put in.

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

Again Gerald I must disagree you you.The majority of immigrants are not highly educated, they maybe generally educated to a higher standard but the word "highly" educated would suggest a degree or a similar qualification.And I also disagree with the statement about it being a " narrow band of benefit scroungers "For example, there are more polish people living in Ealing than anywhere else in the world ( except Poland of course ) and all the guys who are here with their families are claiming some benefit or other and the ones whose families are not here claim for the families back in Poland.I'm sure there are lots of foreign professionals here but the balance is is definately tipped towards the unskilled/construction/manufacturing sector.The sectors I have mentioned are not as well paid as the professionals and all the people I have encountered claim as much as they can. People from Liverpool coming to London that add to congestion is a daft point as adding to congestion has nothing to do with claiming benefits.I dont " lump " people together, I merely look at the VAST sums of taxpayers money involved in catering for these people and its shocking.In theory your right about the pension. I know that the money I pay is not set aside for me, however, because I have and will pay in to the system for all my life I am entitlted to my pension BECAUSE I have paid in to the system all my life.... so it equates to the same thing.I also notice you didn't mention in your reply the £420 million pounds spent on translators or foreign prisoners that I said could be better spent on nurses,teachers,doctors or police !

Andy Wright ● 5971d

I don't think you're taking my points in before you dismiss them, Andy.For example:______________________________________________________> In theory your right about the pension. I know that the money I pay is not set aside for me, however, because I have and will pay in to the system for all my life I am entitlted to my pension BECAUSE I have paid in to the system all my life.... so it equates to the same thing.______________________________________________________But I wasn't talking about whether you're entitled to it - you just read it as that because for you this is all about entitlement, and knowing your rights, and how everyone else is on the make at your expense. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about who, exactly, is going to be working here and paying taxes *at the time* that you need that pension and that healthcare. Either: (a) less, because the UK population is stagnant or declining, compared to the numbers of surviving elderly by the time you're one of them; or (b) a healthy thriving working-age population and economy by the time you retire, made up to a large part (10% or more) of the children of those immigrants who you claim are here only as a drain on the system.That's the point - it's not about how entitled you are to "keep your money" - it's that your tax and NI money has already been spent, today, on treating the existing elderly, and the money that goes on you when you're old will have to come from young people at the time. Trying to cut down on the number of educated young people in future, just because of your "£5K tax vs. £10K education for immigrant children" fulcrum is calculating the wrong thing. It should be "the tax those children will pay in future" vs. "what it costs to school them now".All your arguments are based on a very limited sample of Polish building industry workers in your neck of the woods. The same "analysis" of British migrant workers in Germany the "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet" era of the 70s/80s would haev led the Germans to conclude that all Brits are scroungers, too. Would that have been correct?

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

Or to put it more simply: it's not about whether you're *entitled* to your pension and healthcare money back when you're old. It's about whether you actually get it - because with a falling workforce there may be no money in the pot to give back to you.Having a thriving workforce in future, of all colours, is what is good for your own future and chances of getting your tax and NI money back. Having a small workforce of the children of (current) native Brits only, and a declining economy which can't afford to look after you, is not in your interests at all. The £5K tax those children's parents allegedly pay now, is really not the point.

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

Its you thats being dismissive Gerald.And your entire arguement hinges on these people staying here and living totally honest lives, twice now I asked for your views on the £400 milion spent on foreign prisoners.... still, I await your answer.I'm annoyed because my tax and NI money could be better spent elsewhere Gerald. It annoys me that we have a huge benefits bill and yes I know that English ppl claim benefits but the vast majority of those ppl have paid in to the system for years... and because they have paid for years it DEFINATELY entitles them, and it's not getting any smaller is it Gerald???All my arguements are not based on " a very limited sample of Polish building industry workers in your neck of the woods " I merely used ONE example that came to mind.I could go on about health tourism or credit card fraud ( predominatly eastern european ) , chinese DVD sellers...the list is endless Gerald.When the English went to work in Germany back in the 70s and 80s we worked hard and paid their taxes.... and because we were mainly self employed over there we recognised we were just visitors in Germany.... and came home and didn't overstay and try to bleed Germany dry !As I said previously, the Labour government were INSISTANT that there were more immigrants leaving our shores than arriving, so that kind of stops your point dead in its tracks.... basically, these ppl turn up and use the resources of the UK.... and when they have had enough they leave.So what happens if an immigrant family leaves before their kids can use the education thats been lavished on them before they are supposed to start work and pay tax???Some immigrants turn up with more than 1 child Gerald, if it costs £5000 per year to eduate one child it costs £15000 to educate 3 children, plus healthcare plus housing and all the other stuff they are "entitled" too and not paid for.

Andy Wright ● 5970d

"When the English went to work in Germany back in the 70s and 80s we worked hard and paid their taxes.... and because we were mainly self employed over there we recognised we were just visitors in Germany.... and came home and didn't overstay and try to bleed Germany dry !"How do you know that? Because the Daily Mail told you?? The notion that our people are well behaved when abroad is a load of b****cks, as can be seen from English chavs rioting at European football tournaments.

Robin Taylor ● 5970d

"The notion that our people are well behaved when abroad is a load of b****cks, as can be seen from English chavs rioting at European football tournaments."But football supporters are tourists, not looking for work or benefits.British workers in Germany 20 plus years ago were treated similarly to the Turkish 'gastarbeiters'. When one's permit is up - out or if EU stay as a tourist then get out! While working in Frankfurt 25 years ago I saw several families removed from trams apparently having overstayed their time limit.BTW did you manage to get all the dog cack off your shoe?

Alan Brainsby ● 5970d

"BTW did you manage to get all the dog cack off your shoe?"No, I didn't. TP is a very difficult substance to remove.

Robin Taylor ● 5970d

Re foreign workers who claim child benefit for their children who are not even in the UK?? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx it is not only the children they claim for Andy. They can claim for all dependents, incl wive(S), so the total for one " breadwinner " who manages to get here could be sizeable. I read some good while ago for example "we " keep whole villages in Africa. Don't let anyone fool you, they come here for what they can get. Some say we can't blame them for that, maybe so, but we are being taken for a gross ride on a grand scale. I have now learned Iraqi friend No1, who came here 10 years ago and never worked, lived on bens, drug imbiber, had to put in secure accomodation for almost 2 years at horrendous cost, let out, given flat, lives on bens which he now spends on whisky and cigarettes, is thinking of letting " his " flat out to collect the rent. His mother, married , husband has 5 bedroom house in Huntingdon ( I have stayed there ) does not want to stay in Huntingdon as too quiet,has flat overlooking Hyde Park at taxpayers' expense ( Iraqi owned ) but she is in Syria and has been for some time. How they get away with it I just don't know. We are being fleeced wholesale.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re Some immigrants turn up with more than 1 child xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and it's not just the number they arrive with.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re No, I didn't. TP is a very difficult substance to remove xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx just yet another example of a personally abusive post from this source, and made for the purpose of personal abuse alone, the sort of thing that should not be allowed on any public Forum.

Tony Price ● 5969d

"just yet another example of a personally abusive post from this source..."I was asked by another forum member if I had succeeded in my endeavour to remove an unpleasant substance from the bottom of my shoe. I merely replied that I had not.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"Re Some immigrants turn up with more than 1 child" xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx "and it's not just the number they arrive with."Good point, Tony. It's bad enough that so many of these pesky immigrants arrive on our shores in the first place. But what is intolerable is the fact that lots of them are nice, peace loving and hard working - making them culturally incompatible with you.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"They can claim for all dependents, incl wive(S)..."Good grief."...I read some good while ago for example we keep whole villages in Africa. Don't let anyone fool you, they come here for what they can get."It's so nice to see TP spreading tolerance and understanding."I have now learned Iraqi friend No1..."Is this another one of your imaginary friends?"...never worked, lived on bens, drug imbiber, had to put in secure accomodation for almost 2 years at horrendous cost, let out, given flat, lives on bens which he now spends on whisky and cigarettes..."Just like your average indig, then."How they get away with it I just don't know."Still, the great thing is you're never one to complain, are you?

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

Re I merely replied that I had not. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yet another lie, you did not do the above, you specifically, purposefully and unneccesarily involved a member of this Forum in your response thus engaging in personal abuse,and which is just another example of your continued harassment, both aspects ie the personal abuse and continued harassment should each be sufficient reason for your removal from the Forums, and jointly, most assuredly so.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re making them culturally incompatible with you. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yet another example of personal abuse and harassment and to a previous post in which the abuser had not been involved.

Tony Price ● 5969d

I personally think both of you should be banned from this Forum. Both of you are intolerant, narrow minded and intent on giving verbal abuse to each other. If you both have a point to discuss, do so but without the personal abuse - either that or discuss the subject matter privately through a personal message thereby letting other topics be discussed.

J Smith ● 5969d

Why on earth should Robin be banned, he's one of the few people here who actually challenges the BNP racists, the rest of you just let them get away with it. Well done Robin, keep it up.

William Young ● 5969d

Re do so but without the personal abuse xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I must say I do not engage in personal abuse, something I have always avoided. I maintain it says more about the abuser than the abused. That some feel the need to engage in it is not only sad but means they have no logic or facts to expound. In many ways it is better to be the abused than the abuser. In the final analysis, the former has nothing to answer for whereas the same cannot be said of the latter.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re Well done Robin, keep it up. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx just been manufactured have you, FIRST post you have ever made, despite your avowed long scrutiny of the Forums.

Tony Price ● 5969d

"you specifically, purposefully and unneccesarily involved a member of this Forum in your response..."Good grief! I simply mentioned the removal of TP from the bottom of my shoe. 'TP', for your information, stands for 'Turd from Pavement'.What on earth made you think it was a reference to you?

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"yet another example of personal abuse..."But I was merely agreeing with you that the numbers of immigrants is not the only issue.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"I must say I do not engage in personal abuse, something I have always avoided."Like when you called me "sick" for living in Southall?And then called me a "liar" when I reminded you that you have called me sick?And then, when I presented you with the proof of your allegation that I am "sick", you responded by trying to justify your use of that word?As I have said before, I will never be polite to someone with your extreme racist views. Racism is ill-mannered and discourteous, because it attacks people for something they have no control over.By definition, racists are people who lack courtesy - therefore they have no right to demand courtesy from others.I would much rather the moderators saw sense and banned you from the forum for propagating your malign ideology, which is designed to cause hurt and offence to people of other races and cultures. However, in the absence of their willingness to do that, I will respond to every discourteous remark of yours with an equally discourteous remark aimed at you.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

>> When the English went to work in Germany back in the 70s and 80s we worked hard and paid their taxes.... and because we were mainly self employed over there we recognised we were just visitors in Germany.... and came home and didn't overstay and try to bleed Germany dry !>> As I said previously, the Labour government were INSISTANT that there were more immigrants leaving our shores than arriving, so that kind of stops your point dead in its tracks.... basically, these ppl turn up and use the resources of the UK.... and when they have had enough they leave.I thought you were (unlike some), at least capable of having a coherent debate with even if disagree with you, Andy, but it's increasingly looking as if half your argument is based only on prejudice.You've now got the point of contradicting yourself in the space of two paragraphs. First you say Brits in Germany were Ok because they went home and 'didn't bleed it dry', and then you say immigrants to the UK are a problem BECAUSE they go home.The difference, for you, appears to be based entirely on this benefits thing, but you're chopping and changing your scenarios. Transient East European economic migrants who come to work here then go home are no different to the UK builders in Germany - they work, they pay taxes, they on the whole do not bring family and kids over here if they have no plans to settle.Those who do settle and bring families, whether EU or non-EU, tend to stay and so do their kids.All you're doing is repeatedly planting these allegations of "immigrants coming here are different to Brits going abroad, because everyone coming here claims benefits whereas Brits don't" as if it's proven fact. In fact everyone tends to behave the same. British pensioners moving to Spain have been accused by Spanish politicians of exploiting their healthcare, while at the same time they're eligible for UK winter fuel payments even while living on the Costa del Sol. This theory that if you just keep repeating enough times that the British are decent and take no money from anyone, while Poles come here and take benefits from both countries, is just nationalistic prejudice and is unworthy of your otherwise quite interesting debating style.

Gerald Cabb ● 5969d

I think this is the crux of it. It isn't just a difference of opinion, it's about whether someone should be allowed to post opinions here which would have no place in a public newspaper or properly moderated forum, for the simple reason that they are very clearly offensive to people and based on prejudice. The rules of this forum explicitly mention bigotry.This does NOT mean there can be no discussion of immigration; only that it should be done with the same level of courtesy, and lack of outright prejudice, that would be seen in the pages of an edited newspaper letters column. And for the same reason, that anyone should be able to read it, without feeling vilified for the colour of their skin or the language of their mother tongue (or, for that matter, the gender or sexuality they were born with).If the editor cannot enforce this, then the next step may have to be to take it to the holding company that runs this website, as they are legally responsible for what is published here. Some of what Tony Price in particular posts (and Ms Connell, with her talk of brown faces at school gates) is racially inflammatory and may well get the Police involved if it was brought to their attention.

Gerald Cabb ● 5969d

Robin I can speak with authority on that particular subject as my father was one of them! He worked there as a self employed builder ( self employed means if you dont work, YOU DONT EAT and NOTHING is given to you for free) Paid all his taxes and when he was able to secure work back home he came back.... completely self sufficient.The only ppl who behave like that are stupid drunken football fans Robin.

Andy Wright ● 5969d

Gerald I am perfectly able to hold a coherent debate on most subjects.My view have nothing to do with prejudices either, for me its PURELY ABOUT MONEY AND RESOURCES.The Brits went to Germany as SELF EMPLOYED WORKERS. They all had the correct visas and paperwork and if they didn't work they didn't get paid a penny....thats the big difference here. They only expected to be paid for the work they did AND NOTHING MORE...not a difficult concept is it Gerald???You have also used what I said prevously in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CONTEXT. When I said about the immigrants going home I clearly stated that some would leave AFTER having claimed benefits,educating their kids,health care ect ect.... please feel free to look back at my previous post and actually read it properly !I would have no problem if the transient East European economic migrants....or anyone else for that matter were to turn up here and be COMPLETELY self sufficient and stand on their own two feet financially....and pay in to the system for a few years BEFORE being able to claim a penny.When will you understand Gerald??? I couldn't give a toss if these ppl were burgundy in colour and had 4 heads and twelve arms....it's not about prejudice....IT'S ABOUT MONEY!I dont know a single builder who bought their family out to Germany back in the day purely because it would have meant running TWO houses, one here and one in Germany. Kind of defeats the object of doing what they did dont you think???lets look closely at the English pensioners living in Spain. These are people who have bought their own properties outright after years and years of hard graft Gerald, they also have their own pensions they they paid in to for years and years and they dont ask the spanish government for money or housing DO THEY???And as for the spanish healthcare....The English are spending more money there in total than they receive in return.The winter fuel allowance is only a couple of hundred pounds per year ONCE A YEAR. Once again, these are old folk who have paid their dues Gerald.... What a stupid thing to bring up !And for the THIRD TIME OF ASKING... are you going to address the issue of the £400 MILLION POUNDS SPENT ON FOREIGN PRISONERS???

Andy Wright ● 5969d

Actually, your response to this (my) whole question, is outright misleading. You claimed that immigrant children being a drain on the state because they cost more to school than their parents pay in tax, using the most extreme of low-paid employment as an example.I responded that this is (a) not typical, and (b) missing the point, since those kids will stay and contribute to the economy, which will help pay and staff your retirement and healthcare. I said this is not only good, but necessary, as we need an influx of young people while you and I get old, and the country's demographic is ageing.You then tried to claim this will not happen, since the average immigrant (in your world) comes here, fleeces the system, and then leaves "when they've taken enough", and their kids with them, so making no contribution in future.*Really*? So there are no, or few, 2nd generation immigrants in this country now, nor will there be in future, because every immigrant comes here for benefits and then leaves before they or their children put anything back into the country in taxes and work?Really? So every Asian pharmacist with a British accent, every UK-reared person you meet with a Polish name, every young foreign-ethnic, British-schooled doctor, nurse, accountant, shopworker, not to mention all the kids you see in the playgrounds of foreign origin but British upbringing... all these people, *all* these people, either do not exist, or are about to spirited out of the country as soon as their parents have fleeced the economy for as much as they can and have had enough?I think you've retreated into a complete fantasy world in which immigrants are just some demonic bogeymen of your own invention, and very little to do with the people we see on the streets around us every day.

Gerald Cabb ● 5969d

Capital letters in every paragraph now, I see. You've lost it, Andy.My entire point was about money and resources, actually. I wasn't saying you should welcome immigrants with open arms because you're a lovely person, the point was that it's in your economic interest. You keep banging on about foreign prisoners but you could also bang on about the total cost of foreign people in the NHS, or housing, or anything else. Yes, running the country costs money per person, and foreign people cost a proportion of that money. They also pay a proportion of taxes, buy a proportion of goods, and make a proportion of the stuff that is sold. So what? I'm sure you could also produce a grant total of all the parking spaces taken up in Ealing by foreigners, too, or how much they cost in sewage disposal to this country. Great, well done.Anyway, the capitals do it for me - you're frothing at the mouth now. I think you've become a waste of time to talk to, in this conversation. Have fun.

Gerald Cabb ● 5969d

"and very little to do with the people we see on the streets around us every day."I think the time has arrived for a definition of 'immigrant' in this thread because there is more than one kind.

Alan Brainsby ● 5969d

Re 'TP', for your information, stands for 'Turd from Pavement'. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx who made me think you were referring to me ?, just simply you as you had said during your long string of personal abuse and specifically directly leading up to this point , the depths of which no-one else has ever dropped to. So why try to wriggle out of the reputation you have so earnestly fought to attain for yourself.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re And then called me a "liar" when I reminded you that you have called me sick? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx no no no, thrice no Mr Taylor. I repeat I have never called you sick and I have never called you a liar. We must get the record straight and dispel your distortions. Why oh why do you persist is making them. Always bear in mind honesty is the best policy. Perhaps you will be so kind as to produce the post where I called you a liar, as you so publicly allege.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re Some of what Tony Price in particular posts is racially inflammatory xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx denied, evidence please

Tony Price ● 5969d

I've been reading this, it's awful. Ealing is obviously not the Queen of the Suburbs anymore, just another province with a lot of small time folks peddling their small time racism and shouting at eachother a lot. I am shocked and disgusted.

Jas Wilkins ● 5969d

"Perhaps you will be so kind as to produce the post where I called you a liar, as you so publicly allege."______________________________________________"...so yet another lie, just lie upon lie upon lie. In fact your existence is one big lie..."- Tony Price, 24/05/10 01:03:00 Re:Why are you all (well nearly all) so foul to each other?______________________________________________

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"Ealing is obviously not the Queen of the Suburbs anymore"....Too right! It hasn't been for at least 50 years. Why people still think it's a middle-class area defies logic.QotS was applied in the 1800s, a long time ago.Then define Ealing, London Borough of Ealing, Borough of Ealing, W5+W13.Don't get the point about racism, what's that got to do with overpopulating the area which is the underlying problem?

Alan Brainsby ● 5968d

Re then the next step may have to be to take it to the holding company that runs this website, as they are legally responsible for what is published here. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx a ploy by the lefties to control the Forums and stifle free speech of facts. Where the Management should act is on the question of personal abuse which is normally not allowed on public forums. I wonder if the holding company of the messsage board on which this is posted proposes to remove :- " Can someone explain how Diane Abbott can send her son to the private £10.000 a year city of westminster school, and then have the bearface cheek to call herself a socialist?Also, why didn`t she not declare her earnings £17.300 from the leftist BBC on the register of member interests?Can anyone explain why this arrogant racist supports minority groups like black police officer societies,.....and yet if someone tried to start a `White` only police group, they would be hounded and legislated out of existance!,........being inclusive and fair is about treating the poor and underpriliged across the board,..... irrespective race, colour, or creed! "

Tony Price ● 5968d

"and yet if someone tried to start a `White` only police group, they would be hounded and legislated out of existance!"What a stupid thing to say. There is already a white-only police group - it's called the Met.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

The racist remarks on here are disgusting, and I can't believe the puerile justifications for them. I am just hoping the majority on here are the minority in the real-world Ealing.

Jas Wilkins ● 5968d

Nothing misleading at all Gerald, your just not reading what I said....AGAIN !I use capital letter for EMPHASIS purpose only and not because I " foam at the mouth "I said that SOME will leave and not all.... again please feel free to look back at my post. So with that in mind I guess you wasted your time in writing all that rubbish about pharmacists,shopworkers....I dont remember the rest.Immigrants are leaving EVERY DAY Gerald... or are you going to deny that as well??? We live on the same world its just that some of use our eyes instead of bumping around with a white stick in hand!I suspect the real reason you dont want to continue is that every point you have raised, I have adequately answered with factual answers and you simply have nothing else to say.

Andy Wright ● 5968d

"I suspect the real reason you dont want to continue is that every point you have raised, I have adequately answered with factual answers "The reason Gerald doesn't want to continue is because you're not worth it.Btw., you seem to be complaining about immigrants who go home. Your sort usually complain because they don't go home. You just like to have a good moan.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

The immigrants never pay as much as we have done into the economy.They come here with their customs and traditions ...when their children are of age, they "arrange" marriages often to partners in their mother country then in time another huge number of extended family members become eligible to come here too addng to the snowball effect.Others who make a lot of money send much of it back to their mother country or fund their own organisations...so no they do not contribute sufficient to the economy of this country....

Marie Anne OConnell ● 5968d

"The immigrants never pay as much as we have done into the economy...Others who make a lot of money send much of it back to their mother country...so no they do not contribute sufficient to the economy of this country...."The English were the biggest economic migrants the world has ever seen. We were constantly going to other countries to abuse the people and bleed their resources dry - and all for our own financial benefit. So less of your hypocrisy, madam.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"The English were the biggest economic migrants the world has ever seen. We were constantly going to other countries to abuse the people and bleed their resources dry -"...Yes, next to the Spanish, French, Portugese, Belgians, and Dutch. I suppose we were better at it.

Alan Brainsby ● 5968d

The English were the biggest economic migrants the world has ever seen. We were constantly going to other countries to abuse the people and bleed their resources dry - and all for our own financial benefit. So less of your hypocrisy, madamxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxHow so Robin??

Andy Wright ● 5968d

And what exactly do you mean by my sort??I will tell you what sort of person I am Robbin, I get angry when our pensioners are forced to choose between food or heating in winter because their pensions wont cover what they need.I get angry that hospital waiting lists are so long that ppl spend MONTHS AND MONTHS in pain.What about our school buildings and education system, nurses,doctors,police or our army fighting without proper kit???Did you know that someone with AIDS can turn up in the UK and get 50k per year worth of treatment and yet every day there are cancer patients who cant get the necessary medicine because its deemed to be too expensive EVEN THOUGH they have paid in to the system their whole life ??Thats not moaning Robin, these are FACTS I have stated.So, come on then.... are you saying I'm wrong to feel angry???

Andy Wright ● 5968d

I see, so all the problems you list are the fault of immigrants?Wrong.Those problems would be worse if it were not for the immigrants who staff our hospitals and do so many of the other things that OAPs rely upon.Take a look at my first post on this thread, because I'm not going to waste my time reading off the list again.Your anger is entirely misdirected - you only vent your spleen at immigrants because they provide you with an easy scapegoat.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"How so Robin??"If you knew anything about history, you wouldn't need to ask.Ever wondered why English is the most widely-spoken international language, Andy?Think about it...Then consider why it is that this country is allegedly a favourite destination of refugees and asylum seekers...Make sense?

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"Ever wondered why English is the most widely-spoken international language..?"Never wondered, it's what those generous Americans speak.

Alan Brainsby ● 5968d

"Never wondered"Well it's because we spread our language throughout the world when we went around invading & conquering.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"Well it's because we spread our language throughout the world when we went around invading & conquering."...That's why most of South and Central America speak Spanish, with a chunk of Portugese. We didn't exterminate the peoples ofnewly conquered lands with the relish of the Spanish, and rarely did we plunder - we traded, even if slaves were among the commodities.

Alan Brainsby ● 5968d

This notion you have that we were nice when we went around colonising countries whereas other colonising powers were all ba**ards just shows how hopelessly naive you are.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"we were nice when we went around colonising countries"...We weren't nice but our track record is far better than most other countries.

Alan Brainsby ● 5968d

Your comments display ignorance and prejudice beyond belief. These are awful racist comments. Please stop :(

Jas Wilkins ● 5968d

"Your comments display ignorance and prejudice beyond belief. These are awful racist comments. Please stop..."What are you talking about?

Alan Brainsby ● 5968d

Posted by: Marie Anne OConnellDate/Time: 27/05/10 21:26:00The immigrants never pay as much as we have done into the economy.They come here with their customs and traditions ...when their children are of age, they "arrange" marriages often to partners in their mother country then in time another huge number of extended family members become eligible to come here too addng to the snowball effect.Others who make a lot of money send much of it back to their mother country or fund their own organisations...so no they do not contribute sufficient to the economy of this country....

Jas Wilkins ● 5968d

So the people on this forum went round colonising places. I would bet that most of our families going back to colonisation days were effectively slaves in britain anyway. The poor were the majority in this country and going back a couple of hundred years we would find many of our families in a fairly precarious position. The colonisation was done by the rich and powerful to make themselves more rich and more powerful. Their training ground was to exploit the British and Irish people by carving up the land. It is nice to know that some people of aristocratic origins are contributing to this debate. Britain was always a pretty brutal country going back with little care for the poor. The non-conformist churches encouraged the development of the british conscience. But it was not till the twentieth century that the working man became of value. So don't be guilty about the empire unless Daddy was a Duke. Cos Great-great--------grandad was most likely living in poverty.

Peter Chadburn ● 5967d

Well then, Peter, it's almost enough to stop a person from being patriotic, isn't it? After all, if someone who is proud to be British is also ashamed of what this country used to do to its own people, then mabye we should stop flying the flag and instead look at ourselves and everyone else as if there were no national barriers.Why should anyone be proud of an accident of birth anyway? (That, after all, is how we became British). Far better to feel pride at what each of us achieve from own endeavours, surely?

Robin Taylor ● 5967d

"Far better to feel pride at what each of us achieve from own endeavours...".That's smugness at best and anarchy at worst.

Alan Brainsby ● 5967d

"That's smugness at best and anarchy at worst."Good grief.

Robin Taylor ● 5967d

too true. but all this old empire guilt crap is silly. i and my family did not do it. i live in a britain where the working man has a stake in a democracy. where our fathers and mothers fought hitler and hirohito. we were betrayed by the powers in the first world war but in the second the british people got stuck into hitler. so that is where the "we" comes in. when it affects the real people of britain. we should be proud of those achievements. our families shared in that.

Peter Chadburn ● 5967d

So you accept no blame for the bad things we did throughout our history - whilst demanding pride and credit for the good things we did?

Robin Taylor ● 5967d

"if you were born in a stable does that make you a HORSE..idiot...."If you must tell stupied jokes, at least try and make them original. The above effort (originally from the odious Bernard Manning) does you no credit at all."Haven't finished reading this thread yet so someone may have got there before me but, had to respond to Robin redbreast's offering above - I think you may find it was the Duke of Wellington who gave us the above quote - when having been accused of being Irish (which he was) but he being one of the few Irishmen to be ashamed of that fact preferring to be English. Nothing whatsoever to do with Bernard Manning - just for your info and now also your betterment Robin!

Bernie Paul ● 5963d

Stop encouraging him please!

J Smith ● 5963d