Forum Topic

Why are you all (well nearly all) so foul to each other?

I abandoned even looking at this site last summer because posters were so unpleasant to each other.Just last week, I returned to see what, if anything, was new.And honestly it's worse than before.Just look at the FINALLY! thread for a case in point. Why all the abuse and name-calling? Are the put-downs and viciousness really necessary even when talking politics? Wouldn't more people join in - there seem to be relatively few posters on this site nowadays - if there was even a little politeness and civility? I know it's not too much to ask because some other neighbourhood forums are nothing like this vitriolic.

Sara Nathan ● 5980d71 Comments

Politics and religion will always bring out the worse in people. Unfortunately some people just don't know when to stop.Have a look at the Chiswick Forum, they too can be unpleasant, although they do discuss quite a variety of subjects.

J Smith ● 5980d

Hot subject matter, stout opinion, backed up by lack of knowledge, research and debating skills - in some quarters.It's only a few, Sara and they mainly fight among themselves with no resulting injury nor augmentation of knowledge.I don't bother with them anymore, personally, unless they interfere to much with reasoned debate and threaten to derail it.Your contributions were always very valued, I think you should rejoin.

Ash Parks ● 5978d

Sara and Ash are both genuinely good people and their input is most welcome.Speaking for myself, I'm afraid I will never be polite to someone like Tony Price (or to any other racist, for that matter). That's just the way I am - and I'm too old in the tooth to change.

Robin Taylor ● 5978d

You will never serve your cause in that case, Robin and you should call into question your general persuading and influencing skills, your understanding of human behaviour, along with evaluating whether you are doing your (very worthy) cause more harm than good.

Ash Parks ● 5978d

Ash,How do you expect me to react to someone who tells me that I'm "sick" to live in Southall?Tony Price and his ilk do not need "persuading" - they need defeating.

Robin Taylor ● 5978d

In your opinion, are you achieving your aim, Robin?

Ash Parks ● 5978d

I'm not sure I have a particular aim. However, it is important to challenge the views that Tony Price propagates.Also, if I'm completely honest, I usually only exchange insults with him as a form of idle amusement (i.e. when I have a spare moment and have nothing better to do).

Robin Taylor ● 5978d

The amount of energy you put into insults is no mere idle moment of amusement.IMO you do do the cause harm. I wish you would reflect on that aspect of your personality. When you get serious, then you can be quite interesting. Why not just stick with that?

George Knox ● 5978d

Quite.

Ash Parks ● 5978d

Well, if you look at the immigration thread you'll see that I started off having a perfectly serious and sensible dialogue with Ash. But then others decided to debase the discussion.

Robin Taylor ● 5978d

I have been concerned too - some remarks seem to me to be less than respectful for those of other creed, race, ethnicity, and gender - As Volunteer Centre Manager in Ealing since 2002 I have been hugely impressed by the tolerance and goodwill of the people of Ealing who come to the Volunteer Centre in Mattock Lane to offer their services to the charities, community, voluntary and statutory organizations in Ealing to help others. I am sure, Sarah, this is the case of few spoiling things to the detriment of many.  I hope posting will be more respectful and positive in future.

Lizzie Saunders, Volunteer Centre Manager ● 5977d

Sara you are right. I used to come on the forum every day but now it makes me feel slightly dirty and sick.I come on every month or so to check nothing interesting has happened that I've missed but it's usually either parking moans (yawn) or general unpleasantness.We actually used to have forum meet ups.  Can you imagine that now?  It doesn't bear thinking about.Lovely Gerry Tan and Peter Wright.  Where are you now?

Jane Salisbury ● 5976d

Peter has moved away. Gerry declines to post.

Graham Weeks ● 5976d

yeah really miss all those threads about how nice the flowers in the park look ...

Al Stuart ● 5974d

Re  someone who tells me that I'm "sick" to live in Southall?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        produce the post where I said that!

Tony Price ● 5973d

Re  I have a spare moment and have nothing better to do).               xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      which seems to be a permanent situation with you, and you would be better  when you go to bed and try to get off to sleep, instead of counting sheep, you repeat " I must stop being a racist " until you manage to convince yourself and then drift away.

Tony Price ● 5973d

Well, well, one moment I mention that others "debase discussions" on the forum, then up pops Tony Price to have his Saturday night rant.You couldn't make it up!

Robin Taylor ● 5972d

Re Re  someone who tells me that I'm "sick" to live in Southall?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        produce the post where I said that!         xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      still waiting so conclude you can't produce it 'cos it doesn't exist, so yet another lie, just lie upon lie upon lie. In fact your existence is one big lie, accusing others of racism when you are the biggest and only racist on these Forums. No wonder you go out drinking, to drown your sorrows  in a sea of alcohol. great entertainment that, real sophistication. Does explain a lot however, lack of vision, quality of posts, inaccuracies, unstable mental ability. Glad  others don't follow you. Hope the BLACK SISTERS  don't have to rescue and house your wife.

Tony Price ● 5971d

"Re Re  someone who tells me that I'm "sick" to live in Southall?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        produce the post where I said that!         xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      still waiting so conclude you can't produce it 'cos it doesn't exist, so yet another lie, just lie upon lie upon lie. In fact your existence is one big lie"----------"Mind you, there are even some sickos and weirdos on these Forums who say they moved to areas of the Borough away from their own folk so as to be with and live among the immigrants from Third World countries. Can you imagine that!"- Tony Price, 27/01/10, 22:23 (responding to a post from Robin Taylor on the "Ban the Burka" thread).----------Now we can all see who the real liar is, can't we Tony? Or are you going to try and do a pathetic wriggle and claim that "sicko" is not the same as "sick"?

Robin Taylor ● 5971d

In my opinion the forum would be much improved if it followed the same rules as a newspaper letters column and deleted posts judged (by an editor) to be offensive on racial, gender, sexual, or obscenity grounds.  This is common decency as nobody wants to read a community forum only to find some uncensored ranting about why they are (in one person's repeatedly-stated opinion) the cause of every known problem in the country. It would not be acceptable for people to be talked about or treated this way in the street or dinner party, and if the same rules were followed here it would be equally civilised.  The attempts by Tony Price in particular to inject race and immigration into every topic from Christmas trees to whatever the latest rant was about, are a particular source of poison here and I for one am glad that Robin does not let him go uncontested - that way at least an immigrant member of Ealing's community does not read this and think everyone is happy to allow racism to go unchallenged.

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

I am surprised to learn that this forum is not moderated -

Lizzie Saunders, Volunteer Centre Manager ● 5971d

Dear all, The forum is moderated by neighbournet HQ, I'm editor (p/t) and responsible for front page stories/newsletter. If I can help with queries etc on the forum I will try and do so.Please read more about forum rules etc in section at top of this page or here:http://www.ealingtoday.co.uk/default.asp?section=community&link=http://appasp.EalingToday.co.uk/server/app/forum/default.asp?site=2Hope that helpsAnnemarie

Editor ● 5971d

Thank you, Annemarie.In my opinion there have been many, and repeated, breaches of the "Refrain from all expressions of bigotry, racism, hatred, or obscenity" rule that have resulted in no action.  This is in comparison to other online forums, or printed media, in which comparable comments would have been deleted.  It is one reason why the immigration or race topics, in particular, cause such heat here - it is because some of us are shocked to see things said which are rarely tolerated in public these days, and feel we have no choice but to respond. The fact that they can be posted here and remain unedited, means the forum becomes a place to vent such opinions when they cannot be aired elsewhere.  It makes the forum unpleasant, and harms the reputation of Ealing as a tolerant and happy place to live.Thank you for pointing out the rules and that the forum is actively moderated.  Can we agree that if a number of people (to be decided by you, but sensible please not 100 or 1000) complain to you about a posting as being out of line with the "no bigotry" rule, you will remove it?

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

GeraldI did contact the moderator quite a while ago on the same topic as I felt that some of the comments raised were personal and in some cases downright rude. I was told that unless the contributors to the particular thread complained the posting remained.

J Smith ● 5971d

Thank you, F.  This seems a somewhat empty measure, since presumably if one wants to complain then this encourages one to join in first (adding more argument to the mix) in order to 'earn' the right to complain.  I think the same standards should apply to the forum as to everyday life.  If the editor of the Ealing Gazette would decline to print a letter (for example, complaining about the number of non-white faces at a school gate at closing time), then the same sort of comments should not get house room here either: the reason Sara notices such a lack of civility here is because a much lower standard of courtesy (to all readers, immigrants included) is tolerated than would be normal in any other walk of life.

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

I think there is some confusion between opinion and it's response.Regardless of the opinion stated if one disagrees with that opinion the intelligent response should be a counter opinion and not an attack on the opinion's poster.Someone for instance might say "Let 'em all in!", and hopefully justify that statement.Someone else might disagree with that statement. The polite response would be to state why there is disagreement. Some posters seem incapable of that and resort to name-calling instead. Whether this due to bigotry, low intellect or plain rudeness I do not know.As I have said before elsewhere on this forum a forum is a place for discussion. One might disagree with a stated opinion but it should be explained and discussed or ignored, not dismissed with insulting remarks.

Alan Brainsby ● 5971d

I think that's true, but I would add the fact that the comments themselves need to be moderated for a certain degre of courtesy - this is a forum with a town's name on it, and it's not true to say "any opinion goes as long as you're not rude about the other poster".  As I said, the sort of opinions that would be declined for the letters page of the Ealing Gazette, will cause just as much offence here and should be edited out if they go against the house rules that the Editor pointed out - whether or not the post also contains abuse toward another forum user.

Gerald Cabb ● 5971d

Careful that I did not mention 'any' opinion I agree that some opinions can be offensive. The offensiveness can be ameliorated by careful use of language.It's quite possible that if I started a thread on the Sigmoid Kinetics of Allosteric Enzymes sooner or later sooner or later someone would find offence.To suggest that some topics are off-forum smacks of Fascism. In reality it is Fascism. Unless this is a specialist forum about enzymes, model trains, ferrets, etc then anything goes if it's in relation to Ealing. That would obviously include comparisons between Ealing Broadway station's forecourt and Wembley Central station's forecourt but not a topic exclusively about the latter's lack of pickup/setdown facilities.We possibly have a problem in what 'Ealing' is in the context of this forum - is it the borough? Or is it W5, W13, and W7? Or is it both?

Alan Brainsby ● 5971d

Alan, I agree entirely that no individual topic is off-forum.  It is entirely possible to discuss, say, immigration in a reasoned and unprejudiced way.  However, some appear incapable of this, and if their opinions are offensive and they cannot seem to stop making them, then this needs editorial action.  This would be entirely normal for a local newspaper or even a polite dinner party, and should be for here too.it is about language, but not only in the pedantic sense - one of the most regular offenders in particular appears to think that by phrasing his words very carefully, it means he can then make very clear and quite offensive implications, and then protest his innocence with "tell me exactly where I said that", but then it's all OK.  Blatant prejudice is still blatant prejudice even if certain words are not used.Any topic goes.  But not any opinion, if the opinion is clearly the result of an offensive degree of prejudice.  If comparing Ealing Broadway with Tunbridge Wells station (to switch examples since one could argue Ealing and Wembley are quite similar demographically), and someone talks about Labour vs. Tory councils (for example), then it's all legitimate wider context.  Even if someone brings in immigration, in a balanced way, this is also fine.  But if someone says - to make a fictional example - "just count the brown faces on the platform at Ealing and it's obvious why there's a problem with parking here and you can never get a seat on the train", then that would be highly offensive without a single racial epithet being uttered.  These are subtle distinctions ,but one that any newspaper letter editor makes daily.  So how do we draw the line?  We go back to my proposal to the Editor - if 5, 10, or whatever number of readers object to her that something posted is offensive to them, then it would be reasonable to take their word for it and edit it. This is simple polite discourse, and is no different to a  dinner party host stopping a conversation and politely suggesting a change of topics if it is clearly making one of her guests uncomfortable.No individual topic is off-forum, but people need to

Gerald Cabb ● 5970d

Re  claim that "sicko" is not the same as "sick"?            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  not at all, what I said was someone who turns his back on his own to live among immigrants ( cos he prefers them ) is sick, ie the turning away from one's own and adopting a racist attitude by " giving " preference to those of another race, ie RACISM, that is the sicknesss aspect. Giving preference to one race over another is racist, and when that brand of racism is ditching your own, that is where the " sickness " aspect comes in. Too subtle for you, but never mind, we ain't surprised.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re  The attempts by Tony Price in particular to             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx bears no comparison to the personal abuse repeatedly used by your doppelganger, that is where you should concentrate upon. That you haven't speaks volumes.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re  I am surprised to learn that this forum is not moderated             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    persactly, therein lies a mystery

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re unless the contributors to the particular thread complained the posting remained.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    even if they do, nothing is done. There is a mystery there.

Tony Price ● 5969d

"Re unless the contributors to the particular thread complained the posting remained."            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    "even if they do, nothing is done. There is a mystery there."I see, so Tony Price tries to get posts removed because he doesn't agree with them. Against freedom of speech.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

There was an interesting spot on Radio 4's Thought for the Day this morning, in which the speaker pointed out that freedom of speech is a constitutional safeguard to preserve our ability to speak out against authority and the government of the day (Hyde Park Corner and all that).What it is not, is a cover story for oppressing and insulting others, and particularly the weak and vulnerable (it is particularly unpleasant to see some here making bitter comments about coloured schoolchildren, of all people - since when has it been British to attack other people's kids for who they are or born as?).

Gerald Cabb ● 5969d

"since when has it been British to attack other people's kids for who they are or born as?"......probably since the Act of Union 1707.Boadicea wasn't too happy about it two millennia ago (but she was an Essex girl), nor was Harold , one millennia ago.

Alan Brainsby ● 5969d

What's wrong with Essex girls, Alan? Just looked up Boadicea and she was from Norfolk, not Essex. The Iceni tribe were from Norfolk.

J Smith ● 5969d

"...what I said was someone who turns his back on his own to live among immigrants ( cos he prefers them ) is sick..."If people like you were better behaved, I wouldn't have done it.As one historical figure (whose name escapes me) once said..."I would love my country well enough - were it not for my countrymen."

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"Re  The attempts by Tony Price in particular to"             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"bears no comparison to the personal abuse repeatedly used by your doppelganger, that is where you should concentrate upon. That you haven't speaks volumes."Why did you cut off the rest of Gerald's sentance, Tony? Here is a fuller version of what he said: "The attempts by Tony Price in particular to inject race and immigration into every topic from Christmas trees to whatever the latest rant was about, are a particular source of poison here". No surprise, then, that you didn't want to reproduce his comment in full.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

Boadicea from Norfolk? And that's the lot (May Gurney)who have banned the English flag from dustcarts in Ealing.Anyway Norfolk's eastish of London, a bit like Essex. All foreign parts.Nothing particularly wrong with Essex girls until they speak. :)Reminds me of a joke:What does an Essex girl use for protection during coitus?A bus stop shelter!

Alan Brainsby ● 5969d

"Re  I am surprised to learn that this forum is not moderated"            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"persactly, therein lies a mystery"Yes, the fact Tony Price is still allowed to post on it surely requires an explanation.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

Re  so Tony Price tries to get posts removed because he doesn't agree with           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      does he, news to me, so evidence please. The only posts I feel should be removed are those made for and containing foul personal abuse. Posts which contain comments with which I do not agree are entitled to stand for the very reasons of free speech. One is of course entitled, indeed obliged to  argue against them if felt to be untrue. Again, just further exercise of free speech. Simple really.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re "I would love my country well enough - were it not for my countrymen."            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx        probably Mahatma Ghandi, presumably why he was murdered by his countrymen

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re  that you didn't want to reproduce his comment in full.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      it's awfully  good of you to defend one of your cabal, some of whom have mysteriously been resurrected in the past 2 days and who strangely have views so similar to yours, almost as if you are reading from the same hymn sheet. And a brand new one was made today, poster, not hymn sheet despite the fact the one you are using is well thumbed.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re Tony Price is still allowed to post on it surely requires an explanation.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx good try, won't work. I do not engage in racism nor personal abuse, unlike some.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re  making bitter comments about coloured schoolchildren, of all people -              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I must  be blind, as I haven't seen those. Like to be shown them, seem worth investigating

Tony Price ● 5969d

"probably Mahatma Ghandi..."No it was not Ghandi. It was an Englishman talking about the English.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"I do not engage in racism nor personal abuse, unlike some."A pure unadalterated lie.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

You're paranoid.I have never met any of the people who have posted on this thread.Just because they do not share your vile prejudices, it does not mean they are not real.You should email NeighbourNet and challenge their autheticity. In short, put up or shut up.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

In other words, you're for free speech as long as it doesn't offend you.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

"Re  making bitter comments about coloured schoolchildren, of all people" -              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      "I must  be blind, as I haven't seen those. Like to be shown them, seem worth investigating"Well you're the one who made them, so you've got a short memory.

Robin Taylor ● 5969d

Re  It was an Englishman talking about the English.          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    sure it wasn't you , in a hall of mirrors

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re  In other words, you're for free speech as long as it doesn't offend you           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx for goodness sake go to Specsavers, you just can't read straight. I said free speech is perfectly acceptable, not personal abuse. Why do you feel the need to purposely mistate what is plainly written. Does you no justice.

Tony Price ● 5969d

Re Well you're the one who made them,           xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  refuted, show me

Tony Price ● 5969d

I can't be assed to pull it out for you.If you are now going to deny the remarks you made about using a magnifying glass to inspect the race of schoolchildren as shown in the Gazette photos of reception classes, then fair enough. It doesn't change the fact that you did it.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"I said free speech is perfectly acceptable, not personal abuse."Well said. Your rhetoric is personally abusive, and not acceptable in polite society. Kindly refrain.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

Re  It doesn't change the fact that you did it.        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      I don't deny that I did, and thanks to your reminders, will do so again but once more it is the reason you either get skew whiff supposedly by accident but more likely on purpose. The accusation has been made by one of your "cohorts" that I attacked coloured school kids, which is absolute rubbish and one questions why such false charge is made, can only be to stir up ill feeling, which in itself is worthy of investigation. That you feel the need to distort the truth of my actions indicates you fear the real reason for my examination of the photos, which as you well know is to analyse the effects of NL's policy of mass immigration, a matter which I and 80% of the country  are very concerned with. That truth you and your ilk try to stifle and suppress, but it will out, believe me. And if I or anyone else want to investigate, we will and publish our results. So your  distortion of the reasons for such investigations throws suspicion on your behaviour. Actually, I am surprised with your stated pleasure and desire for even more immigration, in particular from India, you do not welcome the outcome of such analyses so you can applaud even more and louder your pleasure with the influx of such persons, now standing at 88% in Southall and as you said, in Perivale, almost but not quite, yet. So a racist attitude to be sure. Plain and simply proved, irrefutably so. Period.

Tony Price ● 5968d

Re  Your rhetoric is personally abusive,            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx roundly and soundly refuted. Please prove your contention. I do not engage in personal abuse, facts yes, abuse no. Something you should adopt. Might help your stance, hardly likely but worth a try.

Tony Price ● 5968d

"The accusation has been made by one of your cohorts that I attacked coloured school kids...the real reason for my examination of the photos, which as you well know is to analyse the effects of NL's policy of mass immigration." You've just proved that you did it to attack their race: that's why you sit there with a magnifying glass making notes as to which races the kiddies in their reception classes belong to - so you can then attack them just for existing. You're a disgrace.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

Re  You've just proved that you did it to attack their race        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  cobblers, why keep on trotting out falsehoods. Collectively they don't have a race, so bang goes that allegation. Stop following Goebbels' example by repeating lies often in the hope they will eventually stick. Nazi behaviour and tactics here won't work.

Tony Price ● 5968d

"Nazi behaviour and tactics here won't work."Well you should know. After all, where has it got you?

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

Re You've just proved that you did it to attack their race:          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx no no no thrice no. Not their RACE but their number in relation to indigs. Stop distorting the facts a la Goebbels. It is you who are the disgrace.

Tony Price ● 5968d

Re  After all, where has it got you?      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx just where I am, sat sitting composed  relaxed and feeling happy fascist tactics are on the run.

Tony Price ● 5968d

"...feeling happy fascist tactics are on the run."Yes, I think you're right: I have got you on the run!

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"Not their RACE but their number in relation to indigs."And how do you define them? By their race. Then you count them up. Hitler would have been proud of you.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

"I do not engage in personal abuse"No, you just call people "sick" if they live in areas you don't approve of.

Robin Taylor ● 5968d

Sara Nathan ● 5968d

I was looking at this and I can only say that there is no point in discussing things like racism with some people! racism is real, I was victim of racism all my childhood and even adulthood, being a mixed girl who's grown on a predominantly white country, I got called every name on the racist book. I am also an immigrant, I have moved here 4 years ago. I think that racist people are just ignorant and we should all feel sorry for them! No point in being nasty to each other though! I would also like to say that I do separate the "being a racist" from feeling "upset" for having so many immigrants in your own country but the reality is that this is the 21st century and the world has changed a lot, doors are opened and we should embrace all cultures BUT... the arriving cultures should also adapt to the country's cultures and respect them. There are many immigrants British, Brazilian, eastern European people in my country and we respect them as they were one of us because 99% of them try to learn our language and culture which is great. Anyway, this is just to say that maybe some things are not racism, they should be called perhaps of xenofobism which is also not nice at all but it's not racism... I also think that people just should choose their words wisely so that they are not misunderstood. So far I felt very welcomed in London and love meeting people from all over the world including the good British people! Racism, ignorance is everywhere and the more we ignore it the more it dissipates, ignorance feeds on getting attention so personally... I don’t care anymore about the racist issues, they will always be there... and now it actually makes me laugh because as I grew up I learnt that colour differences are due to melanin and you know what... it's just colour!!! How ridiculous!!  Sorry if it's not very relevant to your discussion but as a former victim of heavy racism and as an immigrant on this lovely country I thought a few words wouldn’t hurt. Cheers All

Nadia Costa ● 5966d

Nadia has raised several points.Here is my take on some of them.“I think that racist people are just ignorant and we should all feel sorry for them!” But why are they ignorant?“...separate the "being a racist" from feeling "upset" for having so many immigrants...”  This is what  most of the 'applicable' posters on this forum think. It's often the deliberate misinterpretation that causes problems.“I also think that people just should choose their words wisely so that they are not misunderstood” Most of us try to do so. Again, it's the deliberate misinterpretation.“..I learnt that colour differences are due to melanin...” and  eumelanin if one has red hair as I still have.

Alan Brainsby ● 5966d

Re  as an immigrant on this lovely country I thought a few words wouldn’t hurt.      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    I agree with more or less everything you say Nadia. As a matter of interest, where were you before 4 years ago.

Tony Price ● 5965d

Another Saturday night behind the keyboard for you was it, Tony?

Robin Taylor ● 5965d