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The trams 'stopped' here as elsewhere because they were replaced by a more cost-effective and flexible form of elctric road-based public transport  -  trolleybuses. The last one of 'those things' (as you so objectively put it) primarily because the all-powerful oil lobby succeeded in geting London Transport to take a big step backward  -  in fact LT had commissioned Shell Oil (of all people) to advise it on the matter!  -  astonishingly such an 'independent' advisor recomended scrapping the world's largest trolleybus network in favour of diesel buses  -  with consequences we've suffered ever since.Trolleybuses don't have to be attached to an 'overhead cable', they have twin booms that touch and glide along twin overhead wires. They didn't and (on the numerous and growing modern systems worldwide) don't 'keep falling off' -  occasional 'dewiring' incidents (as they're termed) are just that in the hands of competent professional drivers - occasional  -  in fact London transport trolleybus drivers used to  have their wages docked for any de-wiring incident  -  and result in no significant interruption to the vehicle's progress -  remedy is a task of moments, and is nowadays performed automatically by the driver without leaving his/her seat, rather than the old-fashioned British method of the conductor getting out and doing it with a long hooked bamboo pole.If you still think (from your evident position of complete lack of fist-hand knowledge and experience of them, unlike many of us) they're 'a rubbish way of travel' perhaps you should ask the transport authorities and the travelling public in the likes of Rome, Athens, Lyons, Salzburg and many others where modern trolleybus systems have been successfuly installed and are being successfully operated in recent years.

Chris Veasey ● 5894d

Quite a number of problems  -  just for example:-Most of the bus stops in my locality (and many many elsewhere) are completely without shelter (of any kind, let alone adequate), seating and real-time bus arrival time info displays;The vehicles themselves are noisy, unpleasantly vibrating, often overcrowded and unbearably hot, and with painfully cramped and inadequate seating, suspension shot to pieces, and are often driven in a way that throws standing passangers around;The bus routes don't necesarily take us where we want to go (there's in fact only ONE route, the 65, here) without time-consuming and otherwise inconvenient interchange between services, often having to cross one or more busy main roads from one bus stop to another.Similar well-founded criticism can and should be made against the rail network.Most of the journeys I have to make (both for my own purposes and/or to take my wife or neighbours) can be made in a fraction of the time, and in much greater comfort, by car.By contrast, all too often public transport travel is inconvenient, unpredictable, time-consuming, uncomfortable, even a painful and downright humiliating experience. IMHO those that don't agree are too easliy pleased and have too-low standards and expectations  -  to the detriment of the rest of us. It needn't be so if the providers didn't have the wrong attitude. A few years ago I made a sustained and etermined 9but regrettebly ultimately abortive) attempt to become a public transport operator in the hope of puttting some of my beliefs about public transport quality into practice.The fact (of which I'm only too well aware) that public transport is even worse in most of the rest of the country, which is being comprehensively screwed for the benefit of London and Londoners, is no comfort or compensation whatever  -  at least not enough to make me abandon the car when and where that is just the only sensible means of travel.

Chris Veasey ● 5894d

Which colleagues do you mean?Re Nottingham, the tramway goes right out of the city to the freestanding town of Hucknall. Of course a taxi driver would be entirely disinterested and unprejudiced on this topic, wouldn't they? And as we all know, taxidrivers know everything about everything and never stop telling their passengers so! (BTW you may also wish to know that in Nottingham as in most UK towns and sities there is a perpetual life-and-death battle between the two breeds of taxi  -  hail-and-ride and private hire, corresponding to London black cabs vs minicabs  -  I've found myself involved as a transport conmsultant on occasions including in Nottingham).Re 'obstruction on the cables' as I said modern trolleybuses can run miles on auxiliary battery power if necessary. Do you know of any electric tramways where your alleged schoolkid shoe-thowing craze is a problem? - so why should it be differenmt for electric trolleys? You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel to dredge up spurious objections to a trolleybuses aren't you?Trolleywires on Uxbridge Road wouldn't be a 'maze'. But if your visual sensitivities are far greater than your other senses, including noise, then that's your preference and your choice. Others may take a different view.FYI Yorkshire gets far less govt funding per head of population than London or Scotland. Ironically Leeds looks set to be the first UK city to introduce a modern trolleybus system (as the sensible cost-effective alternative to an unaffordable tramway system), provided the Westminster govt doesn't stop the funding to help pay for London Xrail.

Chris Veasey ● 5894d

The only 'principle' trams share with trolleybuses is electric traction. It's not a matter of one being more up to date than the other; rather which system is best in which circumstances:-A long on-street route through a succession of crowded narrow town centre high streets like Uxbridge Road is a 'natural' for a trolleybus route, and anything but for a street tramway. By contrast, the Croydon, Nottingham or Manchester situations where redundant or decrepit heavy rail routes can be and have been converted to off-rosd tramways, and where use can be made of lightly-trafficked central area streets previously relieved of other vehicle traffic by bypasses (unlike Uxbridge Road), can be very suitable for tram operation.I can't see we'll even get rid of motorbuses entirely, certainly on the more lightly-trafficked suburban routes (notwistanding that I just don't agree with you re their comfort), but I would like to see a comprehensive trolleyroute network replace motorbuses in the more densely-trafficked routers, which in my judgement swouldor should include all routes which require double deck (or bendy) buses to cope with the traffic. This would transform both public transport service quality and the local environment. Unfortunately the redneck dinosaurs in control at the top of TfL couldn't give a toss about either  -  I've heard them as good as say so in public  -  so we ain't getting decent road-based public transport in London any time soon.There would be significant cost and implementation timescale involved in converting motorbus routes to trolleyroutes (though most of the timescale problem, and a significant part of the cost, is thanks to the imposition by our political, lords and masters at Westminster of a mindlessly and destructively complex and bureaucratic requirement for this comparatively simple technology to be subject to the full rigours of the Transport and Works Act, just like a proposed new railway or tramway  -  other countries are more sensible). But in any event, a trolleyroute could be provided at a fraction of the cost, implementation timescale, and disruption (temporary and permanent) of a street tramway. The main infrastructure construction element for a trolleyroute would be the electricity substations, which would be required essentially as for an electric tramway. That could raise local issues and concerns in some localities and circumstances which would have to be addressed, as did the substations which were planned for the Uxbridge Road tramway.

Chris Veasey ● 5894d

Dialing codes may well have included the route that the tramway was to be built along but a subscriber to the "selected" local area codes could equally be as much as 4 miles away from the nearest proposed tram stop. Hardly a walking distance for the majority. I have maps of exchange code coverage to substantiate my assertion.Now think about this for a moment. People questioned  would have understood 'tram' to be like Croydon and bus like most London buses. Most would have had little idea of what a trolleybus really was. As TfL deliberately misled people into thinking that WLT as a tram would be 'like Croydon Tramlink' (i.e. speedy and reliable), then response given would initially support the concept of the WLT scheme. For the moment a tick for the tram.Your background in market research and knowledge of the MORI polling organisation in that consultation process is as much suspect as the polling that was carried at the time. We have a copy of the questions that were asked and are quite prepared to go through with you on a line by line basis to provide other examples of a biased poll.Politically the Labour party supported WLT, the other parties didn't. Many factors come into play when a resident is in the polling booth and it perhaps difficult to associate Labour's defeat with their stance on WLT but it was without doubt a contribution to their failure not to win that particular seat. As much as you make generalisations in your responses in this forum, then other contributors are entitled to the same.

David Bradley ● 5894d

Trolleybuses dont need more 'room' than motorbuses. But I agree improved conditions and facilities for waiting passengers at bus stops should come first - unfortunately it never will, for the deplorable reasons I explained  -  nobody in authority gives a toss.Re bus stop laybys, two problems: in all too many places thee's just not the space for them; and having pulled into them bus drivers often find it difficult to pull out again because selfish drivers of passing vehicles won't let them out. Another problem at many poorly designed stop locations on narrow footways is obstruction to passing pedestrians by crowds of waiting passengers  -  pedestrians often have to ask permission from such passengers to be allowed to proceed on their way. An partial solution there can be to build out the footway at the stop to accommodate a proper passenger waiting area, as can be seen in some places.Enforcement? I thought enforcement was already pretty zealous, if not ruthless, thanks to surveillance cameras, backed up by visible enforcement in the form of Council parking wardens.Re 'a bit of vibrationn at the lights' (it's rather more than that) I guess the problem is that few punters realise how much more pleasant and comfortable to ride in electric trolleybuses can be, so don't know what they're missing. Personally I find that and other aspects of motorbus discomfort a severe irritant, particularly on a long journey (it's not unusual for bus journeys in London to be as much as an hour).

Chris Veasey ● 5893d

Having posted the original message re trams, I am pleased that at least it produced a response although it is disappointing that many postings resort to abuse.I just think that the link between shepherds bush and Uxbridge needs something better than the exisitng bus service.I have travelled quite a lot and seen cities with modern tram networks, trolley buses and even, in Brisbane' excellent dedicated 'busways' which are in effect tramways without rails or wires. Cities such as Cologne buried their trams under the road in central areas and Amsterdam seems to run trams in streets far narrower than Hanwell.There are bottlenecks along the route where perhaps a bit of demolition is called for tramway or no tramway. There are also stretches where segregation of tram,bus,trolley would be possible. Just let's make a decision to do something.Just some backgroud information. I have lived in Ealing for 30 yeats. Last year |I sold up and moved to Leicester, my home town. Within three months I realised my mistake and poor public transport was a factor (long waits, old buses, no sunday service on localroutes etc} along with sky high parking charges. I moved back to Ealing. Public transport in London is very good and thanks must go to Ken Livingstonebut it could be better. I do drive and do have a car which has averaged 4000 miles a year. This year I may have to give it up due to eyesight problems. I am not a tram 'hairy' just someone who feels that the problems of the Uxbridge Road have been allowed to fall off the table.

keith mason ● 5893d

Living in South Ealing - is it not the case that the bus service is not very generous?So if we changed to trolleybuses would you use your car less? I sort of suspect not. So if you have a large or thirsty car or are a multiple car owner I think you should pay higher taxes - so as to persuade you that 25M+ cars on the road compared to when you were 21 needs a very long but concerted campaign to get you to use public transport more often than you do. Generally there are more buses on the roads than used to be the case and you do not normally as during the 1960s have to wait ages for a bus.  The old trolleybus system meant that to a certain extent you had, as a car driver to get out of the way of trolley buses. Are you saying that modern Tbus systems would never require cars to get out of the way anymore than they do with ordinary Mbuses.You say Tbuses were comfortable. So were the Routemaster Mbuses - partly because they had much larger wheels and partly because they had better suspension and probably also had better breaking systems, all of which the young kid designers cannot appreciate as regards newer Mbuses. Are you saying that modern Tbuses will be as comfortable as the old ones? Frankly I would be surprised.I don't know why you make such an issue about additional bus shelters. There were hardly any 40 years ago and we managed. They are nice to have and should be expanded but gradually.I am surprised about some posts saying Mbuses are comfortable and not badly driven. I totally disagree. They were far better driven in the earlier times, - partly because they had better technology. But that's a management issue.

George Knox ● 5893d

The bus service in South Ealing - consisting of the 65 passing close to home and the E3 rather further away  -  is indeed not very generous, and for most journey purposes just doean't take me where I need to go without inconvenient and time-consuming interchange. Remedying that with a more comprehensive network with more routes in more directions would certainly be an encouragement to leave the car at home more and use public transport (though that wouldn't help those I have to give lifts to, some of who have seriously mobility impairing, tiring and painful infirmities)  -  but certainly not if I have to stand in the rain for an unknown and unpredictable length of time with no idea when (or if) the bus is coming. But even with all that sorted out, electrifying the bus route network by converting to a clean, quiet and comfortable trolleybus network would be a much greater incentive.How you can say that the much overhyped Routemaster buses were 'comfortable' is beyond me  -  I remember them as a frequent user only too well - eg I endured many unhappy hours commuting on them between Willesden and Hammersmith in the late 1970s, and they were no better than any other motorbus, particularly in winter when with defective or non-existent heating they were freezing cold on the long slow journey.Sorry but (many of) the rest of us are no longer in the dark ages and expect civilised conditions and information at bus stops. Shelters and other facilities have indeed been introduced 'gradually' -  all too painfuly gradually over many years now running into decaades. It's not good enough and there's no reasonable excuse for it. Even worse, in some places in recent years, notably South Ealing, existing shelters and seating have been actually REMOVED from stops (or the stops moved away from the shelters, which subsequently disappeared). To those that expect me to use public transport in view of that attitude, when I have something buch better and more civilised available, I say (as shouild anybody with any self-respect) "Don't call us, we'll call you".BTW the old trolleybus systems (certainly the ones I knew and used, which did not include London) were no more segregated from traffic than motorbus services. There were of course no such thing as bus lanes or any other bus priority measures in thosm days. And there's still no reason in the modern age why trolleybuses HAVE to treated differently in that regard from motorbuses -  they can benefiit from the same bus lanes and other priority measures, and do not need hugely expensive and disruptive segregated transitways, though those are nice to have (for trolleybus or motorbus services) where there's the opportunity and they can be afforded, AND where they won't cause unacceptable problems for other road users and/or requirem property demolition or otherwise wreck the townscape.

Chris Veasey ● 5893d

In a nutshell, to name but a few:-Xrail will have very few interchanges with other rail routes in the sluburbs, so for most punters Xrail will be difficult to access or not worth accessing, even if their journeys have the slightest potential relevance to the Xrail route.This will be particularly so for the many who are conveniently served by the several existing Xrails - known as the Underground and North London Line. The Underground Xrails in particular have far higher service frequency than Xrail will, which together with their greater accessibility through closer station spacing will more than compensate for their comparative slowness. To take just one of many examples: in the unlikely event of another (large) consultancy firm prevailing on me to help out by filling in for a few weeks at Redbridge Council offices at Ilford (as I did for a short while some years back) do I do what I did then, and commute via the Piccadilly Line station that's close enough to see from my house and just a short walk away, or do I traipse up to Ealing Broadway to get Xrail (involving a total average expected access time - walking and waiting  -  of about half an hour, even if the Xrail trains run to time without cancellations?)Xrail will in any case not be as fast as is claimed, as it will have to interwork with other services using the same routes in the outer areas, and the unimpressive service frequency will be further impaired by unplanned and unpredictable (and probably unannounced in accordance with traditional railway malpractice) train cancellations.It is only a matter of time before pressure to speed up Xrail services linking Heathrow and the commuter towns beyond London (such as they are) will result in substantial reduction in the already unimpressive frequency of Xrail trains serving many of the local stations such as Hanwell and Acton (if Acton gets an Xrail station at all).Already the planned Xrail scheme will seriously DISbenefit punters on the Greenford branch who will lose their through service to Paddington.Xrail will have poor or non-existent interchanges with many existing rail routes in central London, particularly now the pressure is on to cut costs. Just as (for example)Thameslink has no interchange whatever with the Central Line which it crosses over in Central London.The only real motivation for squandering all those squilions on Xrail is to give bankers an easier ride to/from Heathrow. Surely we could save all that money and a lot more besides by tying all those bar-stewards to the exising rail tracks during service hours and letting nature and engineering take their course.

Chris Veasey ● 5893d

That's because most of it was originally fronted by big houses like Mattock Lane is now, when Ealing was first developed as a commuter suburb in the depths of rural west Middlesex after the arrival of the railway. I've been stuck here long enough (I realise with horror) to remember when at least one of those houses was still there, at least as a degraded shell, as part of a petrol filling station -  on the north side about halfway between the Kremlin and the start of the real world in West Ealing, before thet site too was obliterated by the tide of concrete and glass cubism.Most traditional shopping streets were developed on the sites of such old housing rows, often by building out a single storey extension at the front to house the retail bit  -  plenty of that can be seen in the likes of West Ealing -  in other cases the sites were completely redeveloped with parades of shops.There's plenty of real 'architectural merit' in the variety of surviving details on many of those buldings in the likes of West Ealing and Southall, which would have been swept away for road widening to fit the tramway in. At least as importantly, those buildings accommodate a wide variety of useful niche shops and other businesses and services, which contribute so much to the attraction and usefulnes of those town centres. That's the essence Jane Jacobs message you have failed to take on board.And I doubt if any of those old buildings are 'dangerous' - I challenge you to show me any that show evidence of serious subsidence. IMHO there's planty of buildings in the pix on  http://tfwl.org.uk/lido1.html and http://tfwl.org.uk/southall.html etc which look good enough and contribute enough to the townscape to be worth keeping on visl;au grounds alone, quite apart from the value and importance of the shops and other services they accommodate.So we'll just have to agree to differ, with respect  -  which at lesst we can, unlike some that have infested this thread.

Chris Veasey ● 5892d

We seem to have some labour party activists lurking around this thread; a sort of breed of people who are able to make a resounded defeat into something a lot more positive. The democratic process is somewhat flawed in so much as the local elections don't necessarily reflect local issues but often the much wider issues.Some voters are effectively disenfranchised because it would take an unprecedented swing from one party to another to oust a Councillor and at other times it is necessary to cast your vote for someone who is truly awful as the rest of the bunch doesn't inspire any great confidence to represent you.Chris is right, some of us do have long memories of the past performances of local Councillors but there is often next to nothing that anyone can really do about it at election time. This doesn't make the first one past the post excellent unless you are wearing rose coloured spectacles. If anyone has the tenacity to suggest that WLT was the wrong solution for the Uxbridge Road corridor then they get labelled as "Petrol Heads", only intent in ensuring that they can continue to use their 4*4s without hindrance. Make any kind of suggestion that could actually be a better idea, then you become a complete nutter and regarded as a nuisance who has to be muted at all costs.If you feel that everything with public transport is just dandy then don't knock those that can say it could be better. You may not want a boarding point seat, protected from the elements, to wait for a bus [and know how long it will be before it arrives] but many would appreciate that "luxury". You may be prepared to have a pretty awful ride in a diesel bus but other passengers would appreciate a smoother ride in a vehicle with environmental credentials.Existing local shopping parades may not be perfect in every last detail but rebuilding them, or simply sweeping them away, using the label "progress" will inevitably mean the loss of treasured retail outlets to be replace with a carbon copy of any other high street up and down the UK.This thread essentially asks whether the WLT scheme should be reconsidered and placed back on the wish list for projects in the local area. The answer really has to be NO but at the same time not to shut the door on ideas and schemes that really would make a difference for everyone's benefit. How this can be achieved is another story.

David Bradley ● 5892d

Robin,Once again you frustrate attempts to engage in grown up debate with your rather juvenile habit of totally misrepresenting the views and motiviations of people that disagree with you whilst avoiding putting forward any sort of counter argument. I presume that by putting my name in inverted commas you are trying to suggest I am Chris in another guise. You can't come up with sound arguments so you are trying to undermine the credibility of those you disagree with - don't think anyone will buy it.Chris does seem to have a greater passion and understanding for public transport than you do. You seem to regard public transport of some sort of hairshirt that you have to suffer for not owning a car and continue to promote the rather dodgy view that the population is divided into non-car owning public transport lovers and greedy car owners determined to destroy the planet by blocking any suggested public transport improvement. These crude stereotypes aren't particularly constructive. Most European countries have developed much more successful by recognising people use a variety of transport and many trips are multi-modal i.e involve the use of a car and bus train. In the UK there does seem to be a dogma that regards the reduction of car use as the primary measure of transport policy success - this presumably is promoted by people like yourself with no family (single I'd guess), no dependent relatives and who don't work in a job that requires them to use a car. I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you suffer from ashtma but you should bear in mind that these are aggravated by particulates the output of which from even the largest 4x4 will be close to zero given modern engine technologies. Your breathing difficulties are most likely to have been caused by pollution caused by buses. I'm not making this observation as an attack on buses which I use travel in far more often than my car.Chris has far more knowledge on this subject that you do - I'm not saying he is necessarily always right but by responding to his arguments in the rather silly schoolboy way that you have done so far you make him appear to be talking complete sense.

Andy Jones ● 5892d

"petrol filling station -  on the north side about halfway between the Kremlin and the start of the real world in West Ealing, before thet site too was obliterated by the tide of..."The site is still there but flattened, the crossings in and out are still visible, in front of the green hoarding. I remember buying my Cortina there in the 1960s when it was a Vauxhall dealership."...building out a single storey extension at the front to house the retail bit..."Essentially moving the building line forward. In Ealing Broadway, The Broadway could be widened by at least one traffic lane if those extensions to the east of EB centre were demolished.Regarding Jane Jacobs, architectural merit, etc old building do have a function. The retail units of older buildings are cheaper, both because of size and condition. It is no bad thing to keep the best of the old when it is in good, or repaired, condition. I appreciate the fact that modern structures are often built down to a price and also have to conform to regulations regarding size, fittings, and insulation. However niche shops can exist in the likes of Northfield Avenue, Pitshanger Lane, South Ealing Road. They don't have to be on main roads. Whether we like it Uxbridge Road is a thoroughfare of some importance. The probability of diverting most traffic from it to the parallel roads of A40 and A4 is unlikely. Of course this gets into the real world of town planning - why have shops fronting main roads? It encourages illegal parking and that menace of the motorist - pedestrians.As you say, we may differ, but that's a privilege of being gentlemen.

Alan Brainsby ● 5892d

I think I ought to respond to the last paragraph in this posting where the assertion is made that the MORI survey showed a positive for the tram. I don't see it that way and give my reasons below.Polling for a subject like WLT is very complex and that is why there is always a full report given by the polling organisation. If you are going to comment meaningfully, all of this should be read carefully in detail. A one liner headline does not really do justice to the report or the authoring organisation. The report is available publicly at: www.tfl.gov.uk. Transport for London issued a press release on this report on 17 June 2005.Some parts of the detail which have not received the same level of publicity as the headline used by TfL, 'Support for West London Tram strong as awareness grows' together with comment are given in what follows.If you want to be 95% certain of the final result [note still not 100% certain - that's never possible] you cannot just take the 'much publicised 48% pro and 37% against'. The figures are actually 48+/- 5 pro and 37+/-5 against [Top of page 8 of the report]. So although its is less likely than 48 to 37, it is still within the 95% probability that the result was 43% pro and 42% against. This of course is a rather different picture.Of probably much greater significance is the information contained on page 12 which states that only about 25% of respondents, by their own judgment, considered that they had a good understanding of the scheme and 38% stated that they only had a limited understanding. Note that the 'undecided's' were only 15% so even if all of those were in the 'limited understanding' group, there was still a significant percentage [23%] who definitely voted one way or the other based on what they themselves stated was 'a limited understanding' of the scheme'.Note also the comment on page 13:"Opponents of the WLT are more likely to have a 'good' understanding of the scheme than those who are in favour of it [35% and 22% respectively]."We can deduce therefore that many of those who voted in favour had by their own admission actually a 'limited understanding' of what they were voting for. If we assume that this group is only slightly more than half of the 23% [as seems reasonable from the statement quoted from page 13], let's call it 13% and that if they had a 'good understanding' then they would have voted against, then the end result would have been 35+/-5 % for and 50+/-5 % against - a totally different result.The results on the bottom of page 9 and the top of page 10 are also very telling and they are quoted in full below:"Among those residents who support the WLT scheme, the main reasons relate to the perception that it will lead to less congestion, journeys will be quicker and that trams are more environmentally friendly. In contrast, the most common spontaneous reasons for opposing the scheme are the view that it will lead to greater congestion in other areas as cars divert to side roads, that it will not provide a solution to transport problems and that roads are not wide enough to support the WLT. In addition, when prompted, 71% of residents agree that the tram will cause too much disruption whilst building work takes place.When presented with a number of potential benefits of the WLT scheme [e.g. reduced pollution, more reliable than current bus services, lead to more jobs in the area] the majority of residents say they would be more in favour of the scheme if these scenarios transpired; Similarly, when presented with a list of potential drawbacks of the scheme [e.g. increased congestion, parts of the Uxbridge Road being closed to traffic], the majority say they would be less in favour of it. Of note, seven in ten would be less in favour of the scheme if it resulted in increased congestion, including 57% of those who currently support the scheme; On balance, more residents disagree than agree that they would personally benefit from the WLT scheme [47% and 38% respectively]. Despite this, 59% say they will actually use it. Of note, 28% of those who oppose the scheme say they are likely to use the scheme.In effect the respondents supporting the scheme are saying that they recognise that there is a problem and that the tramway scheme has been stated to be the only way of solving that problem. They therefore feel that they should support it. Note of course that no possible alternative options are presented in the poll. So in effect the question is, 'This is the only solution to the Uxbridge Road congestion problem - do you support it?' If you consider that this is in reality the question being asked, even the headline quoted '37% against' is actually very high.It is also worth noting that the three main reasons for those polled supporting the scheme were:'Less congestion' [which could be described at the very least as contentious!] 'Journeys will be quicker' [Long distance journeys will actually be slower than the current 607 bus route whilst the difference on short journeys against the current 207 is not likely to be noticeable even if actual in practice]. This tram is proposed to only achieve a mean 13 m.p.h. so the perception clearly does not match the factual reality. This misapprehension has possibly arisen by misleading propaganda concerning the scheme or by the admitted 'limited understanding of the project' by a significant number of the respondents or a combination of the two. 'More environmentally friendly'. Compared to diesel buses this is true but trolleybuses are at least as an environmentally friendly but of course respondents were never asked whether they would support any other environmentally friendly option either equally or more than a tramway scheme.It should be specially noted that 71% of all those responding [nearly three in four] understood and 'agree that the tram will cause too much disruption whilst building work takes place.'It is undeniable that the digging out of all utilities and the installing of the tram track, stops and other infrastructure along the Uxbridge Road will result in traffic chaos of immense proportion for very many years. This is quietly swept under the carpet by those supporting the tram. It has been said by some that a trolleybus solution would require similar disruption but a manually steered trolleybus option would no more need this than a motor bus option.There is another statistic of great interest at the end. Cynicism has led even many of those supposed 'supporters' to believe that the tram scheme is really not going to work because they say that they will gain no personal benefit from it. Note that 70% would be less in favour if they were convinced that the scheme was not going to deliver its promoted benefits. So if the scheme were to be built and did not deliver on its grand promises, there would be a very large number of unhappy residents.If 70% of those who were pro scheme for instance were to become agnostic because of such conviction, then the overall result would be 15+/- 3% in favour, still 37+/-5% against and nearly half not sure at all!We would venture to suggest that if far people were more honestly informed and therefore better understood the issues and also that there were other [cheaper] options available, this latter result might actually represent residents' views far more accurately.The bottom line is that policy in regard to an issue as important and complex as WLT should be based on all information [and that includes the full detail of the MORI report]. What appears to have been done is that one headline statistic has been extracted for political expediency. To quote Andrew Lang:"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts for support rather than illumination"

David Bradley ● 5892d

Thanks for your comments, Parvez.I really don't think there's a lot of point in continuing with these exchanges. There are some people on this thread who, despite ultimately getting their own way with the tram, still feel the need to bludgeon the rest of us into submission for daring to want to see improvements to public transport in the first place.These are the same people who served up the most shocking abuse (against Cllr Wall and others) and yet, because they believe their own malevolent propaganda, have managed to convince themselves that they were on the receiving end of it. They have also, quite comically, managed to persuade themselves that their selfish, self-satisfied campaign to derail the tram was somehow fought in the best traditions of "public spiritedness".It appears that they may be under-employed and can spend all day on here, whereas some of us have more pressing things to deal with. I would, however, like to respond to a couple of misrepresentations:Andy Jones accuses me of "stereotyping" those who oppose the tram, yet then chooses to stereotype me and my personal circumstances (incorrectly, as it happens). I would ask Andy to consider what it is about a journey along the borough's main arterial route that would cause a person to suffer an asthma attack in the first place: it is often not just the type of traffic, but the sheer amount of time taken.A modern, attractive, environmentally friendly tram (such as that which operates on the busy streets of central Croydon) would, in the long run, have cut the need for car usage (and, with it, congestion). Correspondingly, journey times would have fallen. But the opportunity to do something like this has now been shelved for a generation and all because some people who could not see any immediate benefit for themselves were not even willing to listen to those who tried to explain the scheme's merits.We all remember the way SES tried to con the bus-travelling public into thinking the tram would be to their detriment too: that same SES claimed they wanted to see an improved bus service instead of a tram, yet when the Tories got in and started digging up the borough's bus lanes there was not so much as a squeak out of any of the SES smuggies. No doubt they thought Xmas had come early.Regarding the inflammatory personal attacks on Ray Wall, I think I may well help his re-election efforts in 2014. True, the tram he fought for may never have materialised, and his party's view on the issue (and for all I know, his own view) may have changed but at least by fighting on the side of those who use public transport he has shown his worth.One final thought: don't trust anyone who comes on this thread claiming to be an "expert". The fact is that the self-proclaimed "experts" rarely agree with each other on anything - and even those who have genuine expertise are invariably very good at allowing their own personal interests to shade the truth.

Robin Taylor ● 5892d

O dear here we go again with less than factual information. Describing "Tram Stop" as a group of NIMBYS is very misleading as they were the strangest group of people I have every seen, all of whom gave the appearance of not having a fixed abode so I don't know which back yard they were trying to save. They were certainly not like the composition of "Save Ea ling Streets" in their membership make up.I can find no references of the same group advocating extensions to Tramlink - do tell me more. And to be fair opposition to Tramlink was very minor anyway but naturally the construction phase created a lot of displeasure.Now what's all this about misrepresentation of Tramlink operating on former heavy rail routes - it does just that! There is also about a mile of apparent street running but such roads are heavily controlled and you certainly would not be able to drive any private vehicle along such roads for most of the day, if at all. There has been some recent changes to vehicle access along these roads which makes access even more restrictive. There is only ONE very narrow street used by trams, Church Street, that you could drive your private car along but it would be pointless to do so as the one way system effectively dumps you back from where you started! Your last paragraph gives the impression that trams in Croydon travel along the public highway through built up commercial areas and occasionally venturing through a number of narrow streets. Do join me on a visit to this system because you are describing a tramway I do not recognize.Short District Line trains running along the Uxbridge Road are not, IMHO, a solution to the inadequacies of Ealing's current public transport infrastructure. Putting everyone who objects to such an idea as a car lobbyist is in itself quite objectionable.

David Bradley ● 5892d

Well as a transport specialist I am glad that you agree that a tram system would not work along the Uxbridge Road.While I love going on trams, I thought the proposals were some of the most ignorant of ideas for the Uxbridge Road. The costs of the investigation to the taxpayer were shameful.While I support the trolley bus idea and much favour the green aspect of its benefits we will never get one because very regrettably the cupboard is bare. A trolley bus is never going to get you to your destination any quicker than a Mbus - unless of course they are given much more priority. But then the same priority could be given to a Mbus. I agree that a tram will get you to your destination a bit faster but the WLT would just have taken you to the edge of Kensington. How useful is that? Xrail will take you right across London. That has to be miles better in all senses. It will benefit people going both east and west which must cover far more people than the WLT. Just think, we shall be getting Essex boys and girls working in Ealing or Uxbridge even!Excepting the rudeness on this thread which was quite unnecessary, it has been an interesting round the houses discussion, but for me it has served to endorse the status quo rather than change.So let's have a few more quiet hinterland buses, a few more buses which get you to neighbouring towns with decent shopping and employment facilities, a few more bus lay-bys, a new bus station or two, an all singing dancing transport interchange at Ealing Broadway, and OK a few more bus shelters to keep you happy (I certainly think the seating facilities should be installed as a start to benefit disabled people. The shelters around the seating could come later).

George Knox ● 5891d

What a wealth of information and opinions already shared in this thread and some good external references - but many readers may have outdated conceptions of what a modern trolleybus is and so not see it as a vital component in making a modal shift for Uxbridge RoadAs I see the issue, the need is to make travel along Uxbridge Road more efficient and presumably a good public transport system will make this possible.A tramway has massive detraction as it is generally exclusive to other road users.  There is already too much dangerous pollution along our main highways so low emission traction is desirable.We do already have the A40 as the mostly efficient means of bypassing the borough by vehicle and coping for those on longer journeys. The Uxbridge Road is our living and trading area and needs to remain people accessible but without forcing all local journeys into the side roads and so ruining the amenity of residents.Ideally we could find a business sponsor to promote a design competition for the people of Ealing and the other boroughs to offer constructive ideas for a longer term solution. This would be preferable to recent past experience of consultation which feels unsupported and not ultimately validA modern trolleybus can be viewed in many cities, quite surprisingly many American cities have good examples and integrated public transport systems, and Europe too can inspire.These modern trolleybuses are often dual powered with a diesel engine to cope with the stretches where overhead wires are not practical and to get around brief obstructions when wires are in use.  As stated elsewhere, the power is drawn from a pantograph rather like many trains and is stable compared with the single pole of years gone by. It is also simple to raise and lower as required similar but faster than happens on parts of the North London Line.  When the wires are in use we have transit with less emission and much quieter. With the trend for all large buildings already and in future plans, the overhead wire network could soon be fixed without thousands of free standing poles.  Where there is enough road space, these buses could make swift progress and perhaps be limited in stops like the 607 Express A great example of buses in use is the centre of Seattle where buses from the outer areas use diesel and the high occupancy lanes of the freeways to an edge of centre point then raise the wires and glide cleanly through the town, even making use of a special bus tunnel under the main Broadway shopping area with metro like access to street level.Attractive, practical, designed to encourage people to be less dependent on the car at times. Getting people to use Park and Ride to encourage the modal shift.  Some of these vehicles are articulated like the Bendybuses but I suppose that would not get support.I would say send the decision makers to see Seattle and other systems but we need to rein in spending in the new age of austerity.If spending were not such an object we could make more use of the Uxbridge Roadway by creating an elevated section perhaps to run metrotype vehicles rather like they do in Bangkok  and what a bonus it would be for all the high rise dwellers not to have to descend to the lowest street level.We need solutions that will work for us locally.  Cannot see my ideas really coming to fruition so will be happy to accept a consolation of a redesigned public transport interchange over the station area with pleasant views of the Village Green (Haven Green)

Colin Izzard ● 5890d

The episode with Articulated buses has shown that they are not wholly practicable or successful to operate in London, nor is there ever likely to be the capital for the massive amount of infrastructure work which would make them more effective. Apart from fare evasion, axle weight to road loadings exceed the tolerances of the below surface infastructure. Hence the high volume of burst mains and failures along the 25, 73 and 38 routes which had had the heaviest tonnage loadings for the majority of journeys. Arctic buses are far more versatile than trams or trolleybuses but nowhere near as versatile as the old Routemaster was. That really could go almost anywhere with a full load. Light weight and low fuel consumption make that 1950's design to date unsurpassed. Diesel Arctics are strangely, still replacing Trolleybus networks worldwide and the only tram networks now being developed are mostly really light rail routes that utilise existing  heavy rail branch line routes or share wide expanses of road or urban areas with bypass roads.Here, the roads are too small and the envirions too developed.This is exactly the scenario that led to the development of the tube.Which is really the perfect and correct solution long term.The tram was a pipe dream that would in an ideal situation be a perfect system.Hard fact is,  it, as proposed, went way beyond the realms of practical reality  It could never work crammed into what is now a developed area the length of the route.The damage caused by shoehorning the infrastucture in would never be repaired. The gains and benefits were never there. A bus support network would always be required and the limit on stops made the whole thing a complete farce.The dismissal of the Trolleybus proposal as" impractical and too expensive" summed up the wholly political agenda of TfL as did the slanted surveys and the playing down of the traffic displacement north and south. ie. A  48-70% increase in South Ealing road traffic alone would be a disaster from every point of view. Having lived in cities where there are tram networks, they are great, but only in a place where an extensive network exists. Networks can handle diversions, reversing triangles and turning loops and cover for the almost daily occurence of breakdowns, accidents and roadworks.  A single line route cannot and the published poor performance figures for urban single route trams is not good.The Trolleybus is a better option. There is no reason why a double-deck 150 seat Trolleybus could not operate, reducing length by going upwards.If a vehicle fails, it simply comes off the wires and others carry on around it.Even better, Arnhem in Holland uses new hybrid trolleys which run on the wires in built up areas and switch to a diesel generator engine in the suburbs making it a go-anywhere vehicle.TfL and it 's LRT predecessor, refused invites to visit the system poo-pooing it in one breath.

Michael Brandt ● 5871d