Forum Topic

Julian Bell, Council Leader - political opportunist?

In his letter on this website (see front page), Councillor Bell writes:"I am also angry with those responsible for cutting Police numbers and resources as it was clear to me as I watched from the Town Hall steps a heroic thin blue line of local officers (including my own Ward Neighbourhood Police Team Sergeant) attempt to secure the Town Centre from these thugs, that they were woefully under-resourced and lacking in sufficient numbers to do what was needed. How can it be right that Police numbers are being cut when lawlessness and anarchy are on our streets?"Given the Borough Commander Andy Rowell confirmed as recently as 25th May that there are no planned or anticipated cuts to front-line police services in Ealing  this year or next, it's hard to see Councillor Bell's statement as anything other than political stirring.http://tinyurl.com/3lfrbjdIt's also surprising to read Councillor Bell complaining about cuts to the Met Police's headcount (note to Councillor Bell - not all the staff are police officers!) on another front. The Met have around 54,000 staff (nearly 6 staff per mile of road); so even allowing for the significant and excessive number of back office staff the question Councillor Bell could and should have asked is what the other 10-20,000+ officers who weren't on annual leave or off shift were actually doing on Monday night.

Chris Martin ● 5526d25 Comments

The leader of the council has from what I have seen done a good job over the last few days, though the chief executive who does the day to day stuff probably deserves the lions share of the credit. Cllr Bell had until this morning steered clear  making political points, but could hold back no more. Have a look at the tweets he tweeted today, nearly all of them implying that the coalition was somehow responsible for the riots. I pulled him over this and was accused of political point scoring and told too that residents wouldn't appreciate this. clearly he doesn't read his own tweets. For him to now say what he has in his piece here is shameless. The police have told us that there numbers have not yet been affected by any cuts, and Bell knows this. We should be united at this tme and our message should be that the looters are responsible here, not future cuts that Bell wants you to think have already happened. We mustn't let the looters off the hook. Blaming govenrment cuts does exactly that

Colm Costello ● 5526d

Appealing to Cameron not to cut police numbers is not 'letting the culprits off the hook'. What we had on Monday night was a police force that could not cope with the scale of the riots in Ealing and elsewhere. People want and deserve protection. They didn't get it. We need more police not less especially when crime goes up.Even Boris is asking his own government not to cut police. What planet are you on?

John Holt ● 5526d

You have a lovely way with words Mr Holt. I agree that asking for more police, does not let the looters off the hook. What the leader of the council tried to do was give the impression that the cuts had already happened and affected the police's ability to respond, so the cuts were responsible in some way for the damage done. That IS letting the looters off the hook.

Colm Costello ● 5526d

To be honest Boris is right about further police cuts. These gangsters have realised that when organised they can attack places with freedom and then move on. No doubt Police will work out tactics but without a mobile response to deal with looting the police are in a difficult position. however to blame the coalition is wrong. The kids leaving school at 16 have had very little prospects for the last 10 years or so because big business has exploited cheap east european labour for big profits at the expense of training and employing british (yes black, white, brown,etc) kids who would be an investment in the future. The famous only 16,000 Polish workers would be coming into britain was a famous lie, but in reality our previous goverment has allowed this group to be neglected. yes some went to training colleges run by companies that often did not supply tutors or materials. the 16-18 group who were not going to university were totally neglected as sub-contractors on building sites employed russian and other workers on low pay. (is russia in the eu??) this suited the developers as it enhanced their profits.this does not excuse the behaviour of some people as most kids are pretty decent. but the removal of the path to the trades is a social and economic crime.also policing levels appear to be less than other major cities. so boris is right on this one. also the work rules from abroad need to be tightened. we have plenty of skilled people in this country. let british (of all origins) get a chance at these jobs and maybe we can restore hope.yes we are all having to tighten our belts but there are people without belts. people see the rich getting richer and so join the drug dealing scum that blight our city. they need hope.

Peter Chadburn ● 5526d

John, is it not the case that it the numbers of police were less of a reason for the lack of control than the palpably poor approach they took - which even in areas where they were out in numbers largely consisted of standing back and letting the looters get on with it?And if the Met only manages to get just over 10% of its staff out after 2 nights of warnings that things were getting worse, is it not also the case that the leadership and planning by the Met are very much in question?When the police only manage to get 11% of officers actually policing (their own figures) should we be first addressing the issues that allow the police to spend most of their time on admin and not on the job they are employed? Adding additional numbers just adds to the 89% of time spent on admin - what we need is strong leadership, effective planning and for the police to stop wasting time filling in forms that the current home secretary has told them repeatedly to stop filling in.What we had on Monday night was a police force that could not cope with the scale of the riots in Ealing and elsewhere. People want and deserve protection. They didn't get it. We need more police not less especially when crime goes up.

Chris Martin ● 5526d

Peter I agree with you about police cuts. I think it's absurd to cut numbers and Boris and Julian Bell are right to stick up for ordinary people and protest about the cuts. However Cameron has refused to maintain police numbers on the news tonight saying he can't afford to. I would say as a nation we can't afford not to. Can't understand why councillor Costello doesn't agree with Boris. But then he says Julian Bell is failing to blame the criminals. However councillor Bell is quoted saying;'First and foremost I am angry with the perpetrators of these evil acts. They must be brought to book for what they did and the full weight of the law must be used to do this.' Doesn't sound like letting them off the hook to me!!

John Holt ● 5526d

Chris, Baroness Warsi has just said on the news that the police spend 24% of their time on admin so not sure where you get your figures from. I guess much of that is necessary or we would never get any successful prosecutions through the court system, and would have little intelligence gathering and information collation which, I'm sure you'll agree, are essential complements to police presence on the streets.I agree that we should have had had strong leadership and we simply didn't get it. It didn't help that the prime-minister, his deputy and the mayor of London were all absent together during the riots and that Boris waited until it was basically over in London before he ventured home. Cllr Bell was apparently there doing what he could throughout the whole night on Monday.However, I still agree that Boris and Julian Bell are right to oppose the cuts to police numbers in the present circumstances and the potential trouble that the bleak times ahead might bring.

John Holt ● 5526d

What happened could and probably will be repeated. police numbers are crucial. back office arguments are always a bit obscure. do you count forensic scientists as office bound are are they whilst in the building at the front line? only by paying more money into the service and building up the numbers can we handle these events in the future. The PCSO's must be the eyes and ears allowing the more mobile police to act quickly. the gangsters will learn their lessons and next time will be in and out more quickly. they will also disguise themselves better. this was unexpected and so to complain about folk on holiday was a bit much. my boss wanted to cancel my last holiday and he is an idiot. with modern communications we know what is happening everywhere. yes leadership is needed but also more importantly substance. 20 police watching hundreds of looters must have been frustrating for the 20 but the problems can not be laid at one party. they all have a finger on the pie of decline. boris will speak up and talks a lot of sense at times. am glad our council leader tried to be at the forefront. but this is really not a time for politicians to sling mud as they all have some responsability.

Peter Chadburn ● 5526d

It was clearly wrong of Julian Bell to imply that the "thin blue line" of police officers available in Ealing on Monday night was stretched as as result of cuts in police numbers, if only because there haven't yet been any.  He is perfectly well aware that in fact, Ealing's police strength is actually higher than it was a year ago! What did happen was that some of those who would normally have been available had been deployed in Tottenham instead. Those that were left had an impossible task in the face of the unpredicted scale and intensity of the violence; it does neither them or us any good to make unsupported allegations that the response "largely consisted of standing back and letting the looters get on with it".Clearly there are questions to be answered about the underlying causes of the trouble, and how its spread took the Met by surprise. But please let us have a more intelligent and balanced debate than seems to be the case so far.

Tony Miller ● 5526d

Council Leader Julian Bell should be aware that the Borough has over 20+ more officers than it did a year ago. So the facts are Mr. Bell Police numbers have NOT been cut. Julian Bell's statement is quite clearly an act of political agitation. He should perhaps think about the damage that has been inflicted on the Borough by the decision to cut drastically the number of Enviro Crime Officers. These cuts should be reversed !

Tim Woodward ● 5525d

No one has commented on PCSO numbers current or future. Nor have they commented on a proposal by the Council to send out some of their normal staff wearing yellow jackets looking as though but possibly not having any police or PCSO authority or police training.

George Knox ● 5525d

"Baroness Warsi has just said on the news that the police spend 24% of their time on admin".Oh well, if Warsi says it, then it must be true.*sigh*

Mark Law ● 5525d

On police numbers I haven't time to double check the following post http://philtaylor.org.uk/?p=5136#commentsHowever who is telling us the right story?If Councillor Taylor is, then we seem to have fewer police than last year. If the figures have not changed then Councillor Taylor is being too clever with words and misleading us.If he is not then what Councillor Bell is saying is humbug.Exlanations relative to this thread please on a small piece of paper. Thanks

George Knox ● 5525d

Doesn't answer the specific questions about Ealing on Monday night, but this is an interesting articlehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8695585/Three-steps-that-will-transform-our-police.html

Gillian Healey ● 5524d

as my business was looted on monday night i am in despair over the kind of comments i read on the forum . also for my troubles i have been a local ealing councillor for many years.we stand for election to serve our community we give up time and money to serve.having bigoted people question our motives and spread lies is what makes our society what it is today.john holt seems to be the exception to this.if people have something to contribute why not stand for election rather than shout and criticise from the sidelines

Mr Shital Manro ● 5524d

Well Mr Munro, I have both stood for election and shouted from the sidelines. I'm sorry to hear that your business was looted. I hope you are insured.You wouldn't be a Councillor if you didn't want to be so please don't crave our sympathies for holding office.'having bigoted people question our motives and spread lies is what makes our society what it is today'. Wow - quite a claim. Surely you must realise that 'what makes our society' is about many more things than bigoted, prejudiced and lying people.  I'm not your greatest fan as you apparently did nothing to save the demolition of St Helena's Home at 51 Drayton Green. I can't really equate this with smashing, looting and burning. I suppose I might though describe it as wanton, legal, vandalisation of property.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5524d

this is the reason why i do not often take part in this forum mr leach.most of the views expressed tend to be based on misinformation and personal bias i am well able to defend any decisions i may  have taken as part of the planning committee .if you disagree with my view this does not mean you are right and i am wrong.their can be a differnce of views.as for the aspect of being a local councillor the point i was making was that in seeking to serve local councillors of all parties have to give up time and resources and to have bigoted people question their motives is not acceptable.

Mr Shital Manro ● 5524d

It is indeed often at great personal sacrifice (time, family, unwarranted personal abuse) that individuals take on public office, and there is usually little reward for doing so.As I have commented elsewhere, the Leader of the Council was quite right - on behalf of our WHOLE Borough - to establish a fund for the poor man who died earlier, and for the person to simply dismiss it as a stunt was worthy of nothing but contempt.In a democracy, however, we must be able to hold the people we elect to account for the decisions they make. We should ask questions - politely - and if not satisfied with the responses, stand for election ourselves to right any perceived wrong.Openness and accountability are vital.Pure abuse, however - particularly from behind the anonymous cloak of a computer keyboard - is not acceptable. Under any circumstances. It's just cowardly.

Mark Law ● 5524d

I understand that Julian Bell turned up in my town today with his local MP boss and others to show concern.But he and his boss must take on some responsibility for the fact that 5-600 hundred rioters swarmed around and smashed up the centre of my town (West Ealing) for four hours without any sign of any Police at all.Julian Bell was also on national radio tonight expressing concern for the elderly hero who was apparently killed by rioters on Springbridge Road. Wouldn't it be somewhat more dignified if Mr Bell wasn't seen to be garnering cheap publicity from local, regional and national government's inability to stop unbridled lawlessness. After all he's part of this failing cadre of gaurdians of our society.

Eric Alan Leach ● 5523d

I can't believe "Southall MP" (see the front page of this site) Sharma was actually sighted in Ealing...these are indeed interesting times!

James de Vivenot ● 5523d

This thread started on the subject of police numbers.If Mr Manro is concerned about mis-information - which I am sure from time to time he has plenty of justification, it would be very helpful ifhe made some corrections,rather than sit on the sidelines.My own question, rather than a misinformed assertion, is about the numbers of police  and PCSOs in the borough. Last year this year and next year.Would you care to give us chapter and verse please? Otherwise assertions by Cllr Bell may continue to be in doubt.And we hope that your business will recover.

George Knox ● 5521d

Wouldn't that question be more aptly applied to the Police themselves George? Surely there's less chance of getting misinformation if you get the answer from the horse's mouth? So, surely the Borough Commander should be the one to ask questions of about numbers of Police and PCSOs in the borough so a year by year comparison can be made?I thought Boris Johnson had already made cuts to police numbers in London well before these riots took place. Was that not the case?BTW, the Gazette is today reporting that Cllr 'Ranjit Dheer, deputy council leader, represented the borough at a video conference call on Wednesday between the Mayor and about 25 other council leaders. He is reported as saying,“The final issue I raised was that in view of what communities have said, and how we have seen police forces stretched to their limit and nearly being overwhelmed, that further cuts to policing levels would be a disaster.”

John Holt ● 5521d

JohnIt's far easier to get blood out of a stone than get the police figures from Ealing police.But as mentioned earlier in this thread, some of the Councillors do know and since our PCSOs do some of the job (and they are paid for by the Council) I want to know all the totals and which way the trends are going and by how much. You may be aware that the PCSO budget was cut by 25% recently.I would have thought that most people who are concerned about how extensively we are protected by the police services would want to know what the figures are due to recent appalling incidents.

George Knox ● 5521d

Mr John Holt,I note now some other people are putting facts on this site about how Ealing Council is responsible in part for funding the police in Ealing borough at the PCSO level, so why your vicious personal attack on posters on the thread "Nero Fiddled While Rome Burned; Bell Built Car Parks While Ealing Burned" when Ealing funding the police is mentioned? The idea is to debate facts and ideas and not to gratuitously savage and belittle other members. The only negative aspect to this Forum is your own personal angst that you pour out on others regardless. If you take on board what other people say (right or wrong) you might learn something and grow a little.

Phil Mamy ● 5521d

Mr John Holt,I note now some other people are putting facts on this site about how Ealing Council is responsible in part for funding the police in Ealing borough at the PCSO level, so why your vicious personal attack on posters on the thread "Nero Fiddled While Rome Burned; Bell Built Car Parks While Ealing Burned" when Ealing funding the police is mentioned? The idea is to debate facts and ideas and not to gratuitously savage and belittle other members. The only negative aspect to this Forum is your own personal angst that you pour out on others regardless. If you take on board what other people say (right or wrong) you might learn something and grow a little.

Phil Mamy ● 5521d