Forum Topic

Stop & shop on pitshanger Lane

There has been some confusion about the proposed plans for Stop & Shop throughout Ealing. It has been made clearhttp://www.ealing.gov.uk/news/article/312/plans_to_improve_stop_and_shop_parking

Walter Wyeth ● 5341d45 Comments

An extension to 3 or 4hours hardly seems Stop & Shop, more like half day parking

Fred Hunt ● 5341d

true but at least it means that vehicles are no longer parked outside the shops all day. In one case a van was parked outside the bookshop for 6 and a half months!

Walter Wyeth ● 5341d

rE    more like half day parking        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX    almost,  when I read going from 30 mins to 3 hrs I thought far too  long an  " extension " and will block the spaces for too long and cut down on the number of potential shoppers. An hour should be sufficient, 90 mins max. Northfields Ave the same, even for visits to restaurants and coffee bars.

Tony Price ● 5340d

I think the point is that if people use the extra time - and let's not forget it certainly won't be available to all-day commuters - it will benefit the local economy. What else will people be doing during the extension period? There are plenty of stop and shop places on the likes of Northfield Avenue, so unless there are loads of people who all of a sudden are going to drastically change their habits, I don't think you can say this will cut down the number of potential shoppers. For me this is a welcome innovation.

Alex Weel ● 5340d

Re  I don't think you can say this will cut down the number of potential shoppers.                 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      If a car can sit tight for 3 hours instead of the current  30 mins, taken to it's logical conclusion, that one car will deprive 5 others from being able to shop. At the present time, the 30 mins is free, henceforth a charge will be made, wherein may well lie the real reason for the amendment?.

Tony Price ● 5340d

It's only a theoretical conclusion as it assumes each and every stop and shop place is in constant use, which is certainly not the case. Commuters will not be able to use the service, and friends of residents and domestic service providers will make use of residents parking permits. My contention (or hope) therefore is that the number of people forking out to extend their stay will not be that high relative to the number of spaces available. Like you say, you don't really need to spend three hours parked on Northfield Avenue, so who is going to do it anyway?

Alex Weel ● 5340d

Re  place is in constant use, which is certainly not the case.               xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    I beg to differ Alex. It is touch and go to find a place in Northfields Ave. and impossible in Pitshanger Lane,to such an extent I don't bother going there any more.

Tony Price ● 5340d

The Specific problem with pitshanger is that over 50% of the available places have no restrictions,people can, and do, park all day. The existing system there allows for commuters to park and ride giving no benefit to the local shops. I hope that the public consultation will make provision for the entire length of the shopping area along the lane to be converted to Stop & Shop.

Walter Wyeth ● 5340d

This proposal is about making money for the council, not helping business. It takes away parking from shoppers and taxes users of local shops more heavily.The original idea was so poorly thought through, they had to change it to what it is now, which is still a balls up.Originally you had to register your stay even if you were only using part of the free period. Cleveland Cllrs started a petition which is what triggered the change. To see the original idea, click the link. It shows the answer to a written question to the council from Cllr Popham who asked how the scheme would work in practice. http://wwwcolmcostello.blogspot.com/2012/01/stop-and-shop-bays-in-all-of-ealing-to.htmlIt will not help the shops in Greenford Avenue in Hobbayne, the ward i represent one iota. It is hard enough to get a parking place there now, this will make it even harder so people will just go to Tesco's where you can park for free and get whatever you want.

Colm Costello ● 5340d

it is well known that mistakes are made ,It is my understanding that the Council retracted this statement when they realised that it was incorrect-there was no "change of policy"  Shame on the Cleveland Cllrs for claiming to have adjusted the Council's views.

Walter Wyeth ● 5340d

The question is; would the council have "retracted" without Cleveland Councillors raising the issue?Somehow I doubt it, as they seem reticent to admit mistakes just about everywhere else.

Nigel Brooks ● 5340d

I am any Council would have retracted an incorrect statement.The Fact that Cllr Popham placed a written question to ask how the system would work in practice is not "raising the issue", it was simply asking a proceedural question. You give the Cleveland Cllrs too much credit. .

Walter Wyeth ● 5340d

Mr WyethYour understanding is not great to be honest with you. Written questions are submitted before full council to the cabinet member with responsibility for the area covered by the question. cllr M|ahfoouz gave a very clear written answer on how the scheme they were planning to introduce would work. The Cleveland cllrs set up a petition in response to that answer and it proved a very popular petition, so Cllr Mahfouz has now changed tack and wants you to believe that the cleveland cllrs are playing silly buggers. Cllr Mahfouz has succeeded with you but not with others who still don't believe himCan you produce a statement by Cllr Mahfouz admiting that his answer to Cllr Pophams written question was incorrect.

Colm Costello ● 5339d

It is true that my understanding of how a Council works is not great ( whose is?)Are we to believe that Cllr Grant's petition has proven to be "very popular" ,i understand that to date (12/2/2012) it has 245 on-line signatures.This appears to be part of the original answer from the Council"The intention is that the free period of parking will remain but drivers would be required to register via the pay by phone system in order to park and then to extend the period of parking past the initial free period should they choose to." i.e the free period of parking will remain ( in some spots on the Lane, that is 2 hrs)where does it state that after 30 mins charges will be applicable along Pitshanger Lane?I don't know when the council "changed tack", but the e-petition and the hard copy along the Lane still also states-"you will have to pay if you park for more than 30 minutes." whereas the original answer states "after the initial free period"

Walter Wyeth ● 5339d

For once I agree with Tony Price.Stop and shop is what it says. And so it should remain.If you can now for a small price stay up to say 150 minutes you can have a meal in a restaurant, or visit a friend for tea if they live quite close to a stop and shop area, or drop the kids at a friends house and have a natter with Mum. That means stop and shop visits will be more difficult/more inaccessible. Obviously there is no science as to how to determine statistics, but it just seems too obvious that if some people park for up to 2.5 hours once they get wind of a change in parking control objectives, then shop keepers will lose out on passing trade and regulars who wish to do some local shopping.Parking in/around Pitshanger and Leeland has been very difficult for years and to allow long stays would be more of a hindrance than a help. If the Council must introduce this change, then they should make extra stop and shop bays to account for the new loss to shopkeepers, already made worse for so long by CPZs.I don't think the charging regime proposed is right. In a small shopping parade you may sometimes need more than 30 minutes, but barely ever surely not more than 60 minutes.Don't know which politician to believe as usual, but strange the consultations are not on the Ealing website in the first place. It seems like mismanagement, but was that the Council Officer rather than a politician who fouled up?

George Knox ● 5339d

Pitshanger lane has 60 businesses, but only 54 parking places with a provision of 50% Stop & Shop. The remaining 50% are free all day with no resrtictions. If the proposed plans do go ahead it makes sense to make all 54 places Stop & Shop.I also have to add that 2hrs is not necessarily long enough for some women at the Hairdressers.

Walter Wyeth ● 5339d

RE  not necessarily long enough for some women at the Hairdressers.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    so for that occasional imponderable, everyone else has to suffer. From what I have heard of the cost of ladies' coiffeur, they  could afford a taxi there and back.

Tony Price ● 5339d

Pitshanger lane may have 60 businesses, but has about 150 residential units. The parking places are split 50/50 between Stop & Shop and with no restrtiction. It makes no sense to make all 54 places Stop & Shop and leave residents/trades visiting residents no parking.

Fred Hunt ● 5339d

Re  and leave residents/trades visiting residents no parking.            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    as far as Residents are concerned, are there Parking Permits / a C P Z operating in the Lane and the side roads, which also get chockoblock. If not, I would have thought a certain number of spaces available to Permit Holders would go some way to solving that side of the problem in the Lane  and short term  spaces for shoppers, 60 mins max.  The coiffeurese can either slum it on public transport or get taxis, or of course get their hubbies to drive them there and back.

Tony Price ● 5339d

Pitshanger Lane is in the middle of a residential area with plenty of parking spaces in the side streets, Surely it's aquestion of providing a suitable environment for businesses to survive. With the large number of buses it would be practical for residents to park in the side-streets in any event

Walter Wyeth ● 5339d

GeorgeThe error here is not an officer error. It is Cllr Mahfouz's error. The written questions are answered by the cabinet member so the answer given to Cllr Pophams written question was from Cllr Mahfouz. The change came after the petition which highlighted the fact that you would have to register your stay whether or not you stayed beyond the free period. That is a cost to the mobile phone user, so the free period is no longer free, and it would also have been a good deal more inconvenient too. The new plans will allow you to use one of these spaces for four hours in some places. If the free period is two hours, you can stay a further two hours if you pay. so some spaces could have only two cars using them all day if they both take four hours. How on earth will that help business's. It is the height of stupidity for Cllr Mahfouz to say this is how we will help local shops.

Colm Costello ● 5339d

Colm,I appreciate that you are not in the 'inner circle' of your group and so not all information is shared with you, but your claim that the petition has impacted on our policy is utter nonsense!I did not want to make public the e-mails that were sent to Cllr Millican, Popham and Young about this issue a month ago which clarified very directly and simply how this system worked.  It might lead one to believe that the e-mails, petitions and blog entries that followed on from this were a very cynical ploy by Conservative councillors to deceive the people of Ealing with something that you knew was not true.Anyway, here they are for everyone to see:---------- Forwarded message ----------From: "Barry Francis"To: , "Keith Townsend"Cc: "Anthony Young", "Kieron Clarke", "John Popham" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:01:35 +0000Subject: Re: Stop & shop replacement arrangementsDear David, I have listed responses below:- What is the significance of the 10 minutes to which you refer? - There is no significance, I use this purely as an example of when free parking is available.- Which are the high usage sites that will not be affected? - We are working with Highways to finalise the locations, I will send on to you once completed.- Do I assume that shoppers parking at these high usage sites will not need to phone, and just park up to the 30 minutes, with no extension? - This is correct, they will only need to phone if they wish to make payment for periods beyond 30 minutes.- Some Stop and Shop bays are for 60 minutes, not 30 minutes, eg Queens Drive W5. How will they be affected? - We are not intending to reduce the free period at this stage- How will you pre-register vehicles, without their credit card details?  - The vehicle details (registration, make, model and colour) will be recorded by our paybyphone provider and a card will be left on the vehicles providing them with a number to call to complete the registration process should they wish. When the call they will need to provide further information, including card details, but the whole process will be quicker and the customer will have had additional communications to inform them about the new option to extend their stay.I hope that this answers your questions.Many thanks,Barry>>> David Millican 18/01/2012 11:18 >>>Barry:  Thanks for this helpful update. Several questions      - What is the significance of the 10 minutes to which you refer?      - Which are the high usage sites that will not be affected?      - Do I assume that shoppers parking at these high usage sites will notneed to phone, and just park up to the 30 minutes, with no extension?      - Some Stop and Shop bays are for 60 minutes, not 30 minutes, eg QueensDrive W5. How will they be affected?      - How will you pre-register vehicles, without their credit card details?Many thanks      DavidCouncillor David Millican      Conservative Group Leader      Representing Northfield Ward      44 Claygate Road | London | W13 9XG      020 8810 1989 (h) | 074 1263 5228 (m)      david.millican@btinternet.comOn 1/18/12 8:22 AM, "Barry Francis" wrote:>Dear Cllr Millican, sorry for not responding sooner but I have just got>back from leave and returned to work yesterday.>>I can confirm that the existing free period will be retained and enforced>in the same way as it currently is, as such if a motorist wishes to park>for ten minutes in a bay allowing a maximum stay of 30 minutes for free>they will not be required to use the Paybyphone service, this will only>be a requirement if they would like to stay beyond that period of time.>>This will allow customers the opportunity to purchase additional time to>park beyond the free period should they need to park for longer.>>I can also confirm that the Council will only be identifying locations>where there is a high volume of parking activity and therefore this will>not apply to all stop and shop locations at this stage.>>We are able to and intending to pre-register vehicles parking at the>locations prior to commencement but will require the motorists to>complete the registration should they wish to which will require them to>provide their credit card details.>>I hope this clarifies the intentions of the scheme but if you have any>further questions please do not hesitate to contact me.>>Kind regards,>>Barry>>>>>Barry Francis>Assistant Director>Parking Services>Environment & Customer Services>Ealing Council

Bassam Mahfouz ● 5339d

Re  That is a cost to the mobile phone user,      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  which assumes they have a mobile phone, which most do these days but not all, so an unfair requirement.

Tony Price ● 5339d

BassamHere is the written question that was put to you and the answer that you gave. It's also on the Ealing Website. Your plan was as the petition advised, to force people to register their stay even if they only used the free period. Do you deny this so soon after giving this answer. QUESTIONOn 29 November Cabinet agreed to a number of savings. Under Parking, item 4 was for “Replace stop and shop bays with P&D bays (retain period of free parking)”.We have been told that there will be no machines provided in the street and that all payments will be done using mobile phones.How will the system operate practically?Will all parkers have to register when they park, or only those who plan to out stay the free period?___________________________________________________________________________ANSWERThe intention is that a free period of parking will remain but drivers would be required to register via the PayByPhone system in order to park and then to extend the period of parking past the initial free period should they choose too.Once registered the motorist can use the system anywhere in the borough without the need to re-register.Before the changes are due to take place we will conduct pre-registration exercises on vehicles parking in the bays to make it easier for them, this will mean that

Colm Costello ● 5339d

Full question and answer this time. That's why we ask you written questions Bassam. The answer comes in writing and is harder for you to deny, but on this occassion you are still trying to deny what you said yourself. QUESTIONOn 29 November Cabinet agreed to a number of savings. Under Parking, item 4 was for “Replace stop and shop bays with P&D bays (retain period of free parking)”.We have been told that there will be no machines provided in the street and that all payments will be done using mobile phones.How will the system operate practically?Will all parkers have to register when they park, or only those who plan to out stay the free period?___________________________________________________________________________ANSWERThe intention is that a free period of parking will remain but drivers would be required to register via the PayByPhone system in order to park and then to extend the period of parking past the initial free period should they choose too.Once registered the motorist can use the system anywhere in the borough without the need to re-register.Before the changes are due to take place we will conduct pre-registration exercises on vehicles parking in the bays to make it easier for them, this will mean that the motorists will be registered in advance of them needing to use the system for the bays.

Colm Costello ● 5339d

Re  The intention is that a free period of parking will remain but drivers would be required to register via the PayByPhone system in order to park and then to extend the period of parking past the initial free period should they choose too.                xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    seems quite clear to me,ie  must register even for the initial free period

Tony Price ● 5339d

agreed Tony. Not all have mobile phones. this whole exercise is only necessary if you are trying to squeeze more money out of car owners and don't care about local shops

Colm Costello ● 5339d

So, if I uderstand this correctly, and please tell me if I do not, everyone using a Stop and Shop bay on Pitshanger Lane will have to pre-register to use the bays without charge. Is this correct?If so, passing trade will be killed off 'at a stroke' and I, for one, will not pre-register my credit card simply to pop to a shop in Pitshager Lane or other affected areas.If my understanding is correct, may I ask if Tesco, and other shops of that ilk, are behind this scheme to kill-off local traders?

Nigel Brooks ● 5339d

Nigel - you are incorrect in this assumption. If you read the press release it is all clearly stated how it works there: http://www.ealing.gov.uk/news/article/312/plans_to_improve_stop_and_shop_parkingWhatever you get for free now, you will still get for free and you will not have to register, text or call.Colm, it seems that on your blogsite you understood exactly how it worked on my wording as your colleagues seemed to have shared with you my e-mail last week clarifying matters.  I believe your blog entry actually asks the question on who is right: Myself suggesting the above (or otherwise).  You seem to have changed your tune now that you have been shown up.  Seriously, please, do us all a favour and get your facts straight before diving feet first into a debate that you are well out of your depth on.

Bassam Mahfouz ● 5339d

BassamYou have given two different answers to the same question, so clearly between your first answer, which i published here and on my blog and it's also on the Ealing Website, you said very clearly that even if you only stayed for the free period, you still had to register your stay by mobile phone. DO YOU DENY YOU GAVE THIS ANSWER. YES OR NO You have recently changed this. It is hard for people to keep up if you keep changing your mind, but you should be able to keep up with your changes better than I and others. The change was only made public after the Cleveland Cllrs started their petition. If you publicly changed your position from the one in the written answer to the question Cllr Popham put to you before they started their petition, then show me where this is. Otherwise it is not unreasonable for me to come to the conclusion that the petition forced you to change your position. Also, can you explain to me and others here how allowing someone to park in the same bay for four hours helps local shops where this is allowed to happen.

Colm Costello ● 5339d

Thank you for the clarification. I shall continue as before then, parking as spaces permit, for up  to 30 minutes, without either charge or need to register my intent to park.Should this, of course, not be the case, I have this thread (saved) as an audit trail.

Nigel Brooks ● 5339d

Re  without either charge or need to register my intent to park.              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx    I think Nigel if my short memory serves me correctly ( can't be bothered to go back and check ) but the words were    for the time being,    or something to that effect,thus suggesting  changes will take place altering that situation.

Tony Price ● 5339d

NigelYou can't depend on this thread as an audit anymore than we can depend on written answers from Cllr Mahfouz in full council. This plan could change again. Cllr Mahfouz still hasn't accepted that he gave the answer he did at full council so could just as easily deny what he said here, even though it is in writing. It wouldn't be the first time he did this. When a cabinet report on the changes to the recycling service was agreed last year, the press release issued hours after the meeting was different to what was in the report and Cllr Mahfouz changed his position again a few weeks later when questioned at overview and scrutiny committee. See here for yourself, http://wwwcolmcostello.blogspot.com/2011/10/should-we-be-paying-cllr-mahfouz-in.html

Colm Costello ● 5339d

Anyone who has an eye for local issues will know that Colm’s first priority is unlikely to be an invitation to Bassam to join him for a cream tea!!However Bassam, yet again you are to be congratulated for coming out into the open. Let us see more of you please, as let’s face it you hold a senior position in the Council and we do need and want to get a fuller idea of what is going on.I think we now how clarification of the sequence of events and we can draw our own conclusions.But like Nigel I have a problem with the principle of what is being proposed.It seems from the Assistant Director that the focus is on high usage locations. Certainly that is frequently the case in Pitshanger and Leeland. So would you Bassam like to explain please the logic in hitting high usage locations? That is in proposing that people may park longer, I am going to find it even harder to park there. I shall assume that some of the ladies will be parked there on long hair appointments, I shall assume that some of the Mums who take their children to and from the excellent North Ealing Primary will be using the bays for drawn out socials with their local friends, and some others will be making use of the snackeries and restaurants, and that some others will be making longer use of the library facilities, etc, etc. Stop and shop is an easy concept to understand. Muddying the waters with people using the bays for non stop purposes will dilute the principle of stop and shop thereby inconveniencing the shopping public and reducing the trade of shop keepers. Why should shop keepers be denied from profiting from passing trade?And what provision is being made for those who have no phones? As Tony rightly points out, why is it reasonable for the Council to introduce a new form of discrimination?So Bassam, leave the Tories aside for a moment, and may we have the official views on the logic please? Thank you.

George Knox ● 5339d

I am sure that most people are uninterested in the politics of the situation, just the practicalities.The On- line petition and the Petition on the Lane do not correctly state the current position.Moreover, to accommodate up to 4hr parking, the consultation must make provision for all the bays on the Lane to be stop & shop, the park & ride commuters are a nuisance.

Walter Wyeth ● 5339d

"The council is considering replacing this by a system in which you will have to pay if you park for more than 30 minutes. There will be no machines in the Lane. You will pay using your mobile phone."That is the main thrust of the petition. That IS correct.

George Knox ● 5339d

most of the stop & shop bays on Pitshanger lane are for 1 or 2 hours, so as the petition states 30 mins,it is confusing!

Walter Wyeth ● 5338d

most of the stop & shop bays on Pitshanger lane are for 1 or 2 hours, so as the petition states 30 mins,it is confusing!

Walter Wyeth ● 5338d

Why don't Ealing Council do what Hillingdon council have got, and you get a pay and display ticket free from the machine for the first 30 minutes, if you want to stay longer you have to put money in and pay for anything over 30 mins. Simple really, then it doesn't discriminate people who have not got mobile phones (my mother!) and people who do not want to register bank details, esp with all this fraud.

Jaz Brown ● 5338d

Re  There will be no machines in the Lane. You will pay using your mobile phone."            xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  in other words, the Council will be raking in more money at virtually no cost to themselves, a practice I predict will  be used all over the whole of the Borough in time? Meters and Pay machines will be done away with.

Tony Price ● 5338d

Re  not want to register bank details, esp with all this fraud.             xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx      that's a good point, a VERY good point.

Tony Price ● 5338d

And, I should have said, the reason I will not register my credit card details with whatever contractor the council uses.

Nigel Brooks ● 5338d

Commons home affairs select committee met to discuss the dubious world of private investigators which is not subject to any statutory regulation. I just saw a couple of minutes of the committee, but just at the time when there was a conversation about some people on poor salaries being persuaded to give out personal and private details to shady investigators in exchange for a bit of dosh.How good is Ealing Council and its subcontractors at keeping our information secret?So either some people will not sign up to the new scheme because they are more careful or they are more paranoid. It doesn’t matter which. It just means less business for our hard pressed shopkeepers.

George Knox ● 5338d

Re  How good is Ealing Council and its subcontractors at keeping our information secret?          xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx          Difficult decision to make. If there are others involved beyond the Council itself, I would have no trust at all. I wouldn't have much in the Council alone and would probably set up a Bank Account with precious little in it and use it just for this purpose. Having said that, I pay the local rates via Direct Debit,so my details are with the Council and there have been no problems but maybe the circumstances of the parking system are not the same as those of the local rates department.

Tony Price ● 5338d

At least with Direct Debit there is an established refund guarantee system should money be taken 'in error'.Having had my identity stolen once resulting in visits from HMRC investigators (who told me at the time how easy it was to use a couple of documents to 'clone' an identity) I am very (probably over) cautious about who gets any information about me save for e-mail addresses.

Nigel Brooks ● 5338d